(307) A Soap Box ... in the Park: Volume 1 Issue 3: Last Revision: 05/17/05
Catalogs of Mexican Coins
By Kirk Menczer
A reoccurring theme of numerous articles on this web site is that Mexican Coin catalogs have been and are, at best, riddled with inaccuracies, and at worst, the end result of a grand conspiracy among powerful coin dealers and advanced collectors to keep the general public uniformed for the financial benefit of said conspirators.
Allow me to climb on the soapbox and give you one man’s opinion. In fairness, I should tell you this about myself; I am an owner of a coin shop that deals almost exclusively in U.S. coins and bullion. In addition, I am a serious collector of Mexican coins. Therefore, my perspective is that both a dealer and collector.
Mexico began minting coins in the 1530’s and has continued to this day. That’s almost 500 years of coinage from upwards of 20 mints. There is not a single dealer much less a collector who is an expert on all phases of Mexican numismatics. There may be some knowledgeable about Colonial, War for Independence and Republic coinage but not Revolutionary and 20th century and so on. If we consider the better-known authors of comprehensive catalogs on Mexican coinage to be Bruce, Buttrey, Grove, Hanks, Hubbard, Vogt and whoever generates Mexican coin information for Krause publishing, only Hanks and Vogt were full time dealers. The others were collectors or professional catalogers.
The most relevant question is: Where do they get their data?
The simple answer is, I don’t know. I expect to see George Vogt in the next month and I’ll make a point to ask him. We can at least get one answer to our question directly from the horse’s mouth.
Meanwhile, let’s speculate. Data for coins concerning dates, assayers, mintmarks most likely came from personal data, and other collectors and/or dealers. In addition I believe they probably used published mintage figures and various fixed price lists and auction listings. Finally, they undoubtedly used any previous catalogs. All of the major dealers in Mexican coins I know personally, Crump, Dunigan, Long and Ponterio, keep records on the frequency better Mexican coins appear and the price for which they are sold. This data is of immense value to them as they are aware of the limitations of the existing catalogs.
The fact that there are numerous coins cataloged which don’t appear to exist and numerous coins which definitely do exist but aren’t cataloged by any of the above authors shows how difficult a task it is just to produce an accurate listing of coins minted. If one considers “major” varieties the task gets immensely more difficult. There are numerous overdates in virtually all series of Mexican coins that have never been reported.
Resplandores, the definitive work, if not catalog, on Republic 8 Reales, authored by the owner of the most complete collection of 8 Reales ever assembled at that time and a dealer consider one of the foremost experts on 8 Reales, did not include numerous overdates. These coins may have been discovered after the publication of the book or they may simply never have come to the attention of the authors. Either way, it illustrates the enormity of the task. When the experts lack a complete knowledge of even the most popular series, how can a mere collector hope to acquire good information?
Rather than complain that the glass is half empty, we should be grateful the glass is half full. Any person willing to undertake the task of attempting to generate an accurate list of all Mexican coinage from any period has my undying admiration. Mexico does not appear to have a culture of collecting like England, the U.S., Russia and some other counties. In these countries coins were “collected” in mint state from the mid 1700’s. There is an accumulated knowledge that each new author builds on. There doesn’t appear to be a parallel in Mexican numismatics. Consequently, the historical database for Mexican coinage is almost nonexistent prior to the second half of the 19th century.
Dr. Pradeau’s work Historia Numismatica de Mexico, written just over 55 years ago, was the first attempt to accumulate some of this data in a single work. The first comprehensive catalogers of Mexican coins had an unbelievably difficult task. To create 500 years worth of accurate data with limited resources and no base to build on, it’s amazing they did as well as they did.
Today, I believe, the listings of dates, assayers and mints in the Krause publications, the only catalog referred to above which is currently still in print, is probably over 98% accurate. It is more accurate for silver coins than gold coins in the Colonial and Republic period. Iturbide, Maximilian and Twentieth Century is probably 100% accurate. For the Revolution and War for Independence I really don’t know. Perhaps a reader will take up that challenge and offer an opinion.
Pricing data in catalogs is the area in which most complaints are voiced. There are two major reasons for this. Price, as we all know, is a function of supply and demand. The supply side is composed of two elements quality (grade) and quantity (rarity). Most catalogs price coins in four or more grades, Fine, Very Fine, Extra Fine and Uncirculated. I suggest you try an experiment. Randomly choose five coins from each of the Colonial, Republic and 20th century. Add the Revolutionary War, the War for Independence and Maximilian eras, if you collect these. Now calculate the percentage increase in price in Very Fine compared to Fine, Extra Fine compared to Very Fine and Uncirculated compared to Extra Fine for each of the coins. In each series, except where bullion price establishes a base price, the percentage increase from one grade to the next varies very little. Why is that? Where coins are relatively common I believe the authors have gathered some data by grade and then they apply the same percentages to all coins.
My experience in U.S. coins shows us the error of this assumption. Take the 1909 S VDB, 1931 S and 1914 D cent. The 1909 S VDB and 1931s were collected almost as soon as they were issued. Therefore, there is relatively little spread in price between Good and almost Uncirculated as not many saw extensive circulation. The 1914 D however was not collected as “rare” until much later. Consequently the lower grade 1914 D coins are much more common compared to the high grade coins and sell for a much smaller percentage of the higher-grade coins. These coins are accurately priced for their respective grades considering the rarity of coin and the rarity from grade to grade. But the percentage spread between grades reflects the actual rarity in each grade.
As stated earlier, there does not appear to have been a culture of collecting in Mexico. Consequently, prior to the late 1800’s as a general rule, nice Uncirculated coins are much rarer than their lower grade counter parts. This is not generally reflected in the catalogs. In the Colonial and Republic periods lower grade coins are generally overpriced and high grade coins are generally under priced. The exceptions are the hoard dates. I believe that pricing data on the hoard dates was easily obtainable by the catalogers and these coins were cheaper because they were hoard coins. Is it possible the ratios on these hoard coins were extended to all coins?
Rarity is the next component of price. Once again I don’t know were the catalogs got their pricing in the past. Currently, there are contributors to Krause, which supply 20th century data. Consequently, the prices tend to be reasonable for high-grade coins and high for lower grade coins as these dealers don’t have a supply problem and want to sell for the maximum price. The Colonial and Republic area pricing doesn’t seem to have changed much in the last 10 years. I doubt they get much in the way of updated pricing from their various contributors.
One of the first things one notices when looking at a Krause catalog is that some coins are Unpriced and some are priced in the thousands of dollars. Does this mean any unpriced coin is worth as much as the highest priced coin? No. Does this mean an unpriced coin is worth as much or more than the same denomination, same date, same mint, different assayer coin that is priced? No. What does unpriced mean? Not much. Generally, it means it’s not common but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s rare. It means-- the cataloger doesn’t have any current pricing information for the coin. If a coin is priced as a common date, does that mean it is common? Not necessarily. Numerous very rare coins are listed as common.
If there are a number of people who know the real rarity and real value of these coins, why isn’t this information in the catalog?? There are many U.S. coin dealers who lament the days since the advent of the “gray” sheet. That’s because for a relatively small amount of money you can get very accurate and up to date prices on most US coins. This forces the dealers to be very competitive both when buying and selling. Today, U.S. coins are almost a commodity, traded on very small margins. It’s hard to make a living selling U.S. coins.
So, how do U.S. dealers get around this problem? Go to any coin shop or coin show and notice the large number of “split grade coins”. Whether it’s called PQ for premium quality or XF-AU, the idea is the same, give the coin a grade where there’s no pricing data available. Then the buyer must rely on the dealer or his or her own knowledge for pricing data. It this the dealers fault? To some degree perhaps. But you would be surprised how many collectors think it’s unreasonable for a dealer to make more than 5% gross margin. Intellectually, the collector knows the dealer has rent, salaries, utilities, travel expenses, etc., all costs of doing business, but emotionally the collector somehow often feels someone else not them should cover these costs.
Foreign dealers generally have much more difficulty finding good coins to buy, then difficulty selling them. They also generally have a much smaller turn over than U.S. dealers. This necessitates larger margins than generally available on U.S. coins. Can you name a single dealer in the U.S. who makes a living dealing in coins of a single country, other than U.S.? So the foreign dealer must also deal in numerous countries and become knowledgeable in each of them. I believe they fear, perhaps irrationally, that accurate pricing data would be an overall detriment to their financial well-being.
Accurate catalogs would not affect their ability to sell at current market prices because they have a customer base which accepts their advice as to the rarity and value of coins. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be able to sell many rare coins today. However, it would affect their ability to buy coins at below current market prices. On the other hand, the availability of more accurate pricing data might result in a larger quantity of rare coins coming on the market, as the seller would have confidence he was receiving a fair price. Having said that, doing nothing and maintaining the status quo is always an attractive option for the incumbent leaders in any field.
Personally, I can understand a dealer not wanting to give away the information it took him a lifetime to accumulate. In any business, knowledge is the single most important element in any transaction. It is naïve for a collector to believe a dealer should take action, which they believe is not in their own financial best interest. There are now companies, some advertising on this web site, offering data on areas of Mexican numismatics. This data is far and away better than the data, which is available in the current catalogs of Mexican coins. However, they also are not giving the information away! They also have a profit motive. In their case the information, not the coin, is their product. But be aware that their information has significant limitations as well. In fact, thinking a coin is rarer than it is can get you in a lot more trouble than thinking a coin is too common.
The bottom line is this. It is incumbent on us as collectors to recognize the limitations of the catalogs and data we use. Knowing the limitations of the catalogs, we can then attempt to fill the voids from various sources. Hopefully, this website will become a clearinghouse for such data. As mentioned earlier, there are advertisers on this site with a wealth of good information. Also, there are a number of very knowledgeable dealers more than willing to share information with their customers. But don’t expect them to simply give you information if you don’t have a relationship with them. You wouldn’t in their position. Also, don’t think you will ever be able to eliminate the dealer from the equation. You’ll never find all the Mexican coins in the grade you want on eBay or some other Internet source. And if you limit you self to live public auctions you still have to overcome a commission structure separating the buyer and seller by up to 25%. Most dealers would be more than happy to work on similar margins or less and share their knowledge with you.
Ultimately, unless you know which coins are rare and in what grade they are available, you will never be successful building a “world class” collection of any series of Mexican coins with the possible exception of 20th century. Knowing this, it’s up to you, the collector, to decide how you want to acquire access to this knowledge. The information is out there and available if you’re serious, it’s just not all in the catalogs.
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