(308) Mexican Coin Facts & Figures: Volume 1 Issue 3: Last Revision: 04/14/05

 Coin Legends, Fact or Fiction?

 The Coin is dated, but when was it really minted?

A study of some early Oaxaca 8 Reales

Sometime during the early part of this new millennium a fantastic discovery was  made somewhere in the dark forgotten recesses of our modern world.  I believe the event probably took place somewhere in the Mexican state of Oaxaca, or maybe even Guerrero, because the evidence of it keeps filtering in, far from our southern border with Mexico. 

It wasn’t the first time that an event like this has happened-- something very similar took place during the 1980s and at least once earlier, more than likely in the late 1960s or early 1970s. 

These particular occurrences are like finding a time warp in space; suddenly a door opens into another age and place.  Sometimes these occasions help us see things much more clearly, and at others, they tend to only cloud-up and make murky our combined knowledge. 

Those participating in these events, for various reasons, generally shroud all of these incidents in a high level of secrecy.  But one thing is sure-- the end results cannot remain hidden forever! 

Another Oaxaca 8 Reales coin hoard has been found! 

Here is my supposition of the event: A small group of workmen are in the process of deconstructing an old building, far off the beaten track and deep in the tulles, having once been a cantina, inn or maybe even an old hacienda building, partially destroyed during the Revolutionary (1910-1917) War or another of the many civil disturbances that have plagued Mexico.  A workman’s pickaxe or sledgehammer digs deep into an old adobe brick wall, all of a sudden a hidden cache of coins comes tumbling out into the bright Mexican sunlight for the first time in over 125 years.  The men are at first stunned by the gleam of bright silver and possibly even gold coins!  Suddenly they fall breathlessly to their hands and knees scrambling to gather up the coins scattered about on the ground. Then they tear into the wall with renewed vigor, ripping the adobe apart trying to gain access to the hidey-hole and its remaining treasure.  The workmen are excited, beyond our imagination, for they know this new found wealth is more than their poor families have seen in the generations of their history.  Once they establish the fact that they have never seen coins like these, they begin to worry about how they can convert their newly found treasure into today’s pesos without someone stealing their newly found wealth from them.  Later, while gathered around a small fire heating their tortillas and beans for lunch or dinner, they swear to one another and their Virgin Saint, not to reveal to anyone what they have found. Now the secrecy begins!

Why The Secrecy Surrounds Newly Found Hoards

Unlike the two earlier hoards, this one seems to have remained a mystery; no single coin dealer, individual or group seems to have total control of this latest hoard; the coins keep dribbling into the current market from a number of places and from more than one individual.  It must have been a relatively large find and of the utmost value, because all of the coins I have personally seen from this hoard, are in Mint or at least near Mint State.  I haven’t any idea of how many coins were found or for sure what years were included in the hoard, but most of the coins I have seen, or at least heard of, come from 1859 until somewhere in the mid to late 1860s. 

If anyone knows the complete story I would love to hear it, even if I can’t publish the happening and or the results?  While on the subject of recent hoards found, there are also rumors of two new huge (over 3,000 individual coins each) San Luis Potosi 8 Reales hoards floating around somewhere out there, and I’d love to know more about them too!

But let’s go back to the Oaxaca coins.  Any Mexican coin hoard found is a very important happenstance in today’s numismatic market and its secrecy is kept for a number of reasons.  One of the foremost reasons for keeping these hoards covert is that they sometimes, almost overnight, they make very rare coins become rather commonplace, thus driving down the current values of the coins found. Sometimes for only a short time, other times far into the future. 

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus! 

My Santa Clause is a small bearded Italian from San Diego, who once sent me some coins from the 1980s Oaxaca hoard!  I was offered my choice of only one coin, of several, extremely rare Oaxaca Ⓐ 1863 AE 8 Reales from this hoard.  The coin in my collection at that time from this DAM (Date/Assayer/Mintmark) was a real doggy looking Very Fine, which had required me to spend small fortune to acquire.  But because of this hoard and my Santa Claus, it was replaced by a very presentable near Mint State specimen, for a price of about half what my first coin cost.  

A second reason for all the secrecy surrounding any newly found coin hoard is the question of ownership: Who really owns the coins found?  Do the coins belong to the property’s owner?  Or does the title of them belong to the person or people finding them?  Many times these hoards also bring out the government, either local or even a National Government. Most of the finders believe in that old adage—“finders’ keepers, losers’ weepers”.  Generally, if the hoards become common knowledge litigation begins immediately, resulting in the ownership question and the final disposal of the hoard taking years to be resolved.  In some cases, with foreign found hoards, either judges or political figures, which can be bribed by a few pesos or the promise of a political favor, render the ownerships final decision.  Thus making the original finder and the hoard fade into the shadows of history.      

For these two factors alone, new hoards found are normally kept from the general collecting public and numismatic researchers knowledge until many years after the coins have been found and totally dispersed into the underground coin market  

Surely another reason for a CIA type operation is that the finders, especially if there happens to be multiple people having possession of the coins, are generally ignorant of the true value of their find.  Therefore the first coin dealer, or dealers, hearing about the newly found hoard quickly sweep in and buy the entire hoard from the finders, before the original finders discover the true value of their find and where to sell them for the best prices.

What coins and how many are in a hoard?

Sadly, the world’s numismatic researchers generally fall well below the bottom rung of the ladder when it comes to finding out about a new hoard, resulting in them never being able to see and study the entire group of coins found.  Many times these researchers may see only a few, or even worse, only one or two coins, and then only hear hazy rumors about the balance. And believe me, this can be devastating to them!  

The Oaxaca Millennium Hoard Spurs a New Study

I call this new, unknown and unstudied Oaxaca 8 Reales hoard; The Oaxaca Millennium Hoard in order to try to keep it and its contents separated from the earlier hoards in the minds of both dealers and collectors.

Yes, I’ve seen a few coins from the hoard; in fact I’ve even bought a couple.  Additionally I’ve had access to scans and photos from several other small groups that are reported to have come from this hoard.  As both a collector and numismatic researcher, the coins thus seen are very interesting for numerous reasons.    

First, almost all of the Millennium Hoard coins I’ve had access to are Mint State or near Mint State examples.  A few of them have been cleaned, but none harshly so.  Some of the coins are wonderful, bright, well-struck specimens, while others are very softly struck and some even have a slightly mushy appearance.  A few have been darkly toned, I guess from being in a bag, wooden box or lying against an adobe wall or dirt floor.  Very few of these coins I’ve seen would grade less than Extra Fine+, which I personally find rather unusual.  The explanation for this may be that the hoard’s owners are selling only the better coins at first, in order to insure they get top prices for them or maybe there were just very few circulated coins in the group?

If the latter is the truth, there are very few circulated coins in the hoard, this fact leads me to believe they didn’t come from a common source such as a cantina or inn, but in fact may have come from an old hacienda building, a bank, freight office or even a stage line office.  We know from other historical sources the different Republican mints shipped press fresh coins to these types of establishments.   

Something big is in the air!

The first murmur of this hoard came to me in late 2001.  Then during early 2002 I saw scans of a few coins being offered to a collector friend of mine from one of his sources in Mexico, he wanted my opinion about the coins and their values.  Later during the summer of 2002, while attending a small coin show I was approached by an individual inquiring if I was interested in purchasing a mint state Oaxaca Ⓐ1858 AE 8 Reales that had recently been uncovered somewhere in Mexico.  This specimen could be had for a very cheap cash only price?  Was I interested?  You can bet your “bottom dollar” that I was more than interested, you see this is the only Oaxaca 8 Reales or 8 Escudo DAM, confirmed today, that I have never owned or even seen in the flesh! 

I told this individual, he could pickup a very large stack of crisp new U.S. $100 bills on Monday morning, fifteen minutes after my bank opened, in return for the coin.  The individual has never come forth again, nor have I ever seen the coin.

Later in 2002, I was offered a small group of early and Uncirculated Oaxaca 8 Reales, I wrote this secret-agent-man a check ten minutes later.  Now my interest was really peaked, I had seen and or heard rumors of a whole bunch of Oaxaca 8 Reales now dating from 1858 until 1867 from five completely different sources. 

The Millennium Hoard Coins Raise Questions

From 2001 until today several of my cohorts and I have been studying the photographs, scans, and the coins from the Millennium Hoard, trying to determine how many coins were in it and what DAMs appeared.  This has been a frustrating experience to say the least, and I’m not so sure we know more now than we originally did.

However, we stumbled over some potentially startling items, which have led us to do a more in-depth study of certain Oaxaca 8 Reales.  There seems to be several coins with die pairings from different years and styles in the Millennium Hoard, which have gone undetected before?

In Resplandores, Mike Dunigan and J.B. Parker list and illustrate several die styles and die pairings for the Oaxaca 8 Reales from 1858 until 1877.  Today we are only interested in those listed in Table 1.  Supposedly this the order in which these Oaxaca 8 Reales were issued:

Table 1: The Resplandores Oaxaca 8 Reales from 1858 to 1862

Making Some Sense Out of All of This Clutter

I personally love (my third favorite) the Oaxaca Mint, especially all of the varieties produced for the early 8 Reales and all of the 8 Escudos.  I highly respect both Mike Dunigan and J.B. Parker's knowledge in the field of Mexican Republic 8 Reales.  However, I find Dunigan & Parker’s descriptions and designations for the different die styles of the early Oaxaca 8 Reales very confusing!  And believe me I have studied all of the 8 Reales and 8 Escudos from Oaxaca with a fine toothcomb.

When I first began trying to assemble the FoxLair Mexican Republic 8 Reales Reference Collections© I found it was almost impossible to use Resplandores as a guide because so many varieties and different die styles weren’t noted, and I became confused with their nomenclature for defining the Die Styles.

Undisguised and Unbiased Sales Pitch

I decided I would have to start all over.  If you are a serious collector of Oaxaca 8 Reales or a student of the Oaxaca Mint and have the capability of reading CDs, I highly recommend you spend $35.00, plus postage to receive a CD of the FoxLair Mexican Republic 8 Reales Reference Collections© for the Oaxaca 8 Reales.  I not only list all of the Oaxaca 8 Reales varieties I have found and been told exist, but I use a simpler system for  identifying the many different Die Styles and Die Pairings.  The CD also includes at least 226 (we are constantly adding new scans and varieties) high-resolution scans of both sides of 113 different coins, plus some insights into the availability of each.  If you would like more information about this or the other FoxLair Reference Collections go to [FoxLair Reference Collections]. Enough of my BS and sales pitch, now let’s get back to business.

The Uncataloged Oaxaca 8 Reales Not Found in Resplandores

I have encountered 66 different varieties of the early Oaxaca 8 Reales dated from 1858 through 1877, versus 27 listed in Resplandores. In my opinion there is a good possibility even more uncataloged varieties will be discovered in the future as more collectors become Mexican Numismatists.  In Table 2 we show only those varieties that are important to our subject today, 1858 through 1862.

Included in Table 2 are several varieties that I have been told exist, but without seeing the coins or clear photographs of them, I can’t confirm them.  Several previously uncataloged varieties included in Table 2 have been confirmed; I have either seen the coins or clear photographs of them.  However, some are not currently in my database of scans; the owners haven’t felt obligated to share any more information about them with us, for reasons only they know.  

• Those varieties and die styles that are in Resplandores have the FoxLair Number appear in Black.

• Those varieties that are uncataloged, but verified have the FoxLair Number appear in Blue.

• Those varieties rumored to exist, but unconfirmed have the FoxLair Number appear in Red.

I believe the best and easiest way to pass on the information I’m trying to convey in this article will be to use the scans of different coins to illustrate my points, after you have time to look at and study Table 2. Let’s go year-by-year, DAM-by-DAM and variety-by-variety.

Table 2: The FoxLair Oaxaca 8 Reales from 1858 through 1862

Are you finished? I’m sure several interesting tidbits of information jumped out at you, if you spent more than a little time studying Table 2.  Now let’s discuss a few of them.

The Many Varieties of the Early Oaxaca 8 Reales

First, there seems to be a an extraordinarily large number of varieties for only five years, especially when you consider the small number of coins supposedly minted at Oaxaca.  Next, consider that many of the Mexican Republic mints were already hubbing dies by 1858.  Evidently the Oaxaca Mint wasn’t hubbing yet.  In fact many, if not most, of the dies used to produce the early 8 Reales and 8 Escudos appear to have been hand engraved or used some type of segment punches. This practice had ended many years earlier in most Republican mints; so this procedure brings up a rather unusual question: Why was the Oaxaca mint or mints, Mike Dunigan gives us his theory of there being two early Oaxaca mints on page 326 of Resplandores, still using such antiquated methods and techniques? (See: *Side Note and Trip to Oaxaca at the end of this article )

There could be several reasons!  One has to be the reason that the Oaxaca Mint came into being, but that is another story for another time.  It is enough to say at this time, that the mint or mints at Oaxaca were the stepchild of Benito Juarez and he is the only reason one or both came into existence in 1858.  But do we really know that 1858 was the first year of operation?

Some Confusion with Mint Records

The “Official Mint Records” indicate there was no gold or silver struck at Oaxaca in 1858! But we know for a fact there are a few excessively rare 8 Reales and 8 Escudos with this date on them.  However, Dr. Pradeau, in his work, does say that both gold (992 Pesos) and silver (___ Pesos) were produced in 1858 in Oaxaca. Manuel Orozco y Berra also lists no gold or silver production until 1859.  All three sources list gold and silver production in 1859 in varying amounts, and there are some very rare 8 Reales with this date, but I have been unable to verify any 8 Escudos with the date of 1859, even though this DAM is listed in many reference books and catalogs.

From these sketchy details we can easily see there is some confusion with what happened at Oaxaca during the 1858-1859 time frame.  But believe me; it will become more confusing as we go along.         

I feel sure that some of this confusion is a direct result of the mix-up between “calendar” year and “fiscal” year accounting practices used at the differed mints and when the “Official Mint Records” were printed many years later. 

This brings up the next interesting question: Are the dates used on the coins from the “fiscal” year or are they noting the “calendar” year?  And second: Does it really matter?

Today, I still don’t know if the Oaxaca Mint or any of the other Republican mints changed the date appearing their coins at the end of the “fiscal” or “calendar” year.  There is still much confusion about these early date changes at the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia too!  For instance; the 1804 U.S. Silver Dollar is a prime example; it appears that all of the original Silver Dollars struck in 1804 carried a date of 1803 and it wasn’t until many years later that U.S. Silver Dollars bearing the date of 1804 were produced. 

And yes, I believe it is important that we know what date (year) the coins were actually manufactured versus the year that was impressed on the coins we are studying.

Die Swapping at the Oaxaca Mint

From Table 2 it is easy to see die swapping went on at a frantic pace in the Oaxaca Mint, and we know to a lesser degree the same thing happened in other Republican mints.  But is it important? 

It is, only if you are a serious collector, a variety collector or a student of Oaxaca history! If you have read this article to this point you must be crazy, if you aren’t one of these three. 

As early as 1861 we see something unusual happen with the dies used at the Oaxaca Mint: Some coins manufactured at Oaxaca with the date of 1861 on them seem to use dies or matrixes produced by the Mexico City Mint. 

I now suggest you read Mike Dunigan’s theory of two different Oaxaca mints on page 326 of Resplandores before going any further.  Look at the O 1861 FR 8 Reales pictured at the top of page 327 in Resplandores; this coin is our first clue.  Now go to page 305, and look at the pictures at the top of the page of a Mexico City Mo 1860 TH 8 Reales.  These two coins look very similar don’t they?  The Die Style of the Cap & Rays and Eagle appear to be exactly the same.  We also see this Die Style used on some O 1862 FR 8 Reales pictured on the top of page 328. According to Dunigan & Parker, this Die Style either flies away or goes into hibernation until sometime much later!   

Why?

If Dunigan is correct in his assumption that a new mint started up using these style dies from Mexico City, why did it suddenly stop?  Why did the mint or mints at Oaxaca again start making all of those weird looking "birds" they refer to as eagles from 1861 until 1873?

Today, I have no plausible explanation as to why Oaxaca stopped using the Mexico City style dies and started hand engraving those strange looking birds again.  But there are two possibilities that come to mind:

• Could it be because of Benito Juarez and his problems with Mexico City? 

• Or could it be these coins really weren't produced in 1861, they only had the date of 1861 on them?

 I guess we can put these questions, the reasons behind them and the possible answers on the “back burner” until something new and positive sakes out of the woodwork.

Today I have reasons to question all of the dates found on the early Oaxaca 8 Reales.  I now want to show you scans of several different early Oaxaca Eagles.  First, let's look at the Eagle Style of 1859 found on one of the varieties from my personal collection:

FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201b Fox Eagle Style of 1859

 Next let’s look at an Eagle Style of 1860 from my collection:

FoxLair# Oa-1860-1401b Fox Eagle Style of 1860

These two Eagle styles appear on the following varieties of Oaxaca 8 Reales. At this time I have found the Eagle Style of 1859 on the following four varieties:

•         FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201

•         FoxLair# Oa-1860-1101

•            FoxLair# Oa-1860-1301

•            FoxLair# Oa-1861-2201 

 While the Eagle Style of 1860 appears on the following two varieties:

•            FoxLair# Oa-1860-1401

•            FoxLair# Oa-1861-2301

Now let’s look at a scan of the Cap & Rays die Style of 1859 found on the FoxLair Variety Oa-1859-1201a Fox:

FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201a Fox Cap & Rays Style of 1859

Notice the prominent die crack on this coin running from the top rim at 12:00 all the way down to 6:00.  Now for something veryyy interesting …  I have three different coins of this variety in the FoxLair Reference Collection coin scan database, from three different collections.  I’m now going to show you all three with both coin sides for you to compare:

FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201a & b DAB

FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201a & b Fox

FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201a & b Sac

Now look at the coin pictured on the right side of page 324 in Resplandores, Dunigan & Parker call this coin the Eagle Style of 1859-1860, this a FoxLair variety Oa-1859-1201 Fox, and is in fact my coin. 

Notice the Eagle dies of all three of these coins; they are definitely the same dies, but are in different "Die States"!  Do you see the die crack beginning to show up on the rim of Oa-1859-1201b DAB near 1:00 and on the Eagle’s right wing, it continues on down the coin to about 7:00?  Pretty interesting?  Now look at Oa-1859-1201b Sac, notice how this crack is more prominent?  Finally compare these two to Oa-1859-1201b Fox, which appears to be the latest Die State for this variety in my database.  

Now let’s compare the latest Die State of the Style of 1859 Eagle Die found on the Oa-1859-1201b Fox coin with several other DAMs where it appears. 

First, let’s look at variety Oa-1860-1101b Fox, which should be the next coin issued, if Dunigan & Parker are correct in their theory of issue.  

FoxLair# Oa-1860-1101b Fox Eagle Style of 1859

Now let’s look at FoxLair variety Oa-1860-1301, which should be the next coin issued, if Dunigan & Parker are correct in their theory of issue.  We are lucky because I have two specimens of this variety in the FoxLair Reference Collection scan database: The FoxLair# Oa-1860-1301b Sac from another collection, and then FoxLair# Oa-1860-1301b Fox, from my collection.  First we will look at FoxLair# Oa-1860-1301b Sac:

FoxLair# Oa-1860-1301b Sac Eagle Style of 1859

Now the second specimen FoxLair# Oa-1860-1391b Fox, from my collection:

FoxLair# Oa-1860-1301b Fox Eagle Style of 1859

And finally what appears be the latest coin date in the sequence using the Style of 1859 Eagle, a FoxLair# Oa-1861-2201b.  I have been unable to secure a specimen of this variety to weigh and scan, but I have been loaned a photograph to scan by an owner of one, who wishes to remain anonymous.    

Scan of FoxLair# Oa-1861-2201b xxx Eagle Style of 1859

Notice anything strange about all of these Eagle Dies? 

Me too!

The Die States of the Style of 1859 Eagle appearing on the later Dated (after 1859) Oaxaca 8 Reales coins seems inconsistent with the latest Die State found on any Ⓐ 1859 AE Oaxaca 8 Reales: The FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201b Fox specimen. This indicates to me, that the later Dated Oaxaca 8 Reales were actually minted before FoxLair# Oa-1859-1201b Fox specimen!  

Now it is your turn to ponder all of this information and the scans, to see if you reach the same conclusion we did: You can't believe the Date on the early Oaxaca 8 Reales, it has nothing to do with when the coin was minted!

Our last question for you to mull over before we end this long, and sometimes boring article: Is this the only instance where the Date on a Mexican Republic coin has nothing to do with the Year when it was manufactured?

If you know of any other cases of this abnormality, or have theories about them and you would like to share them with us and other Mexican Numismatists, please contact us with your thoughts on this subject.  And if you completely disagree with our conclusions, let us know your feelings and why!

  [FoxLairAJ@aol.com] Contact Ralph about this Wacky Article

 [Table of Contents] Return to Table of Contents Volume 1 Issue 3

[Home Page] Return to Mexican Coin Magic Home Page

[Reference Collections] Go To FoxLair Reference Collections Introduction

*Side Note and Trip to Oaxaca

Last summer one of my numismatic friends (Mr. A) was planning a trip to Mexico, his itinerary included several days in the State of Oaxaca.  He made a mistake, he told me about his trip in advance.  I suggested, on a penalty of physical harm, that he find the oldest living resident of Oaxaca City and ask him or her, if there was an old mint or mints located there still in existence. Mr. A was very fortunate, his Mexican companion (Mr. B) on the trip was a native of Oaxaca and he personally knew the old man (Mr. C) I was looking for.  On the second day in Oaxaca Mr. A and Mr. B met the old gentleman, Mr. C, for a drink and lunch, and proceeded to ask him my many questions.

Yes, Mr. C knew where the old mint was.  Yes, there are extensive records in the Oaxaca State Library about the old mint.  And no, Mr. C knows nothing of a second mint. It turns out that Mr. B not only knows the address where the mint was located; he knows the man who owns the building today.  Now Mr. A and Mr. B go there, today it is a bakery, and there is an old bronze plaque on the outside of the building stating it is the site of the old Oaxaca Mint.  Mr. A is surprised at how big the building is and he takes a bunch of digital photos of the building that we will use in a later article about the Oaxaca Mint.  

Alright its time for one of you guys out there in Electronic Lala Land, who reads Spanish well, to plan a business or vacation trip to Oaxaca to learn more, and to answer some of the more burning questions about the Oaxaca Mint.  Please, before you go, contact me for some of my questions that need to be resolved  When you return, you then need to write a follow up article about what you found hidden away in the archives.