(311) The Back Page: Volume 1 Issue 3: Last Revision: 04/25/05

 A Few Unpublished Republican 8 Reales Varieties

Mexican Coin Magic seems to have attracted the interest of several serious Mexican Republic 8 Reales collectors and several have questioned if we were only going to have gold coins featured on the Back Page?  The answer, as you will see in Issue 3, is no.  So for this issue we have decided to concentrate on a few of the more interesting and unpublished 8 Reales varieties we have found since Resplandores was published.  This is not all of them by any means, only a sampling to whet your appetite. 

 

Recently I had an email from a collector mentioning a coin, which a friend of mine had purchased on eBay, saying that it must be a contemporary counterfeit or fake because it wasn’t listed in Resplandores and he was sure that it would have been documented as a “real” coin, if in fact it was?  I assured him that this might not be the case as there had been millions, if not billions, of Mexican Republic 8 Reales minted in the years (1823 through 1897) these coins were manufactured in the 14 Republican Mints.  He seemed doubtful at my response.  Let me make it clear at this time: If you closely examine any group of 50 to 100 or more Mexican Republic 8 Reales minted before about 1880, from any or all mints, your chances of finding new, unpublished varieties are very good. 

 

In fact, I would go so far as to say there is almost a 100% chance you will find several unpublished varieties, especially in the Culiacan, Chihuahua, Durango, Guadalupe y Calvo, Guanajuato, Hermosillo, Oaxaca, San Luis Potosi and Zacatecas mints.  Even Catorce has many unpublished 8 Reales that Dr. Aby found many years ago.  Now the question becomes: Are these important or “Major” varieties?  It depends on how you as a collector want to classify “Major” or “minor” varieties.  Some people, both collectors and dealers, believe only OverDates, OverAssayers, OverMintmarks and errors are “Major” varieties, but I feel much different.  I personally believe, as a variety collector, that different Eagles or Cap & Rays design or style changes reflect “Major” varieties.  But I’m only one collector, and my opinion is only important to me and not to the hundreds of other collectors.  That’s why collecting any series of Mexican coins is so much fun!

 

Enough of my babble, let’s look at couple of these unpublished varieties found in the FoxLair Reference Collections© from the Alamos, Oaxaca and Zacatecas mints.    I will normally use only one side of these 8 Reales to illustrate my point, however this doesn’t mean that there aren’t differences in the other side, I’m doing this in order to reduce the down-load time for these files from our website. 

 

Alamos Mint 8 Reales:

A 1864 PG:  Resplandores states that there is a single Die Style (the unique Style of 1864) for the A 1864 PG 8 Reales, but I have a difference of opinion.  I believe there are three different Die Styles for this year.  Unfortunately I currently have scans for only two of these.

 

Alamos Eagle of 1864a- Looking face on- this Eagle’s “left” Wing has the second and third two interior feathers dropping down lower than the balance of the feathers and it has a High Dot after “MEXICANA.” that is near the top of the “A”.  A photo of this first coin, the Style of 1864a, can be found in the Richard Long Sale#90 as Lot#88 and as a scan [As-1864-1102b].

 

 

As-1864-1102b Fox

Alamos Eagle of 1864b- This Eagle’s (looking face on) “left” Wing has all of it’s interior feathers in a straight line with no dropped feathers and a Low Dot after “MEXICANA.” that is near the base of the “A”.  This Style of 1864b appeared in the Spink/Gerber Sale#2, Lot#146, and I found it on another coin in a large collection in Mexico, in addition both coins are attributed as being the 4/3 OverDate. Currently we do not have a scan of this variety [As-1864-1201b] or of these photos yet.

Alamos Eagle of 1864c- This Eagle’s (looking face on) “left” Wing appears to have a “cracked wing” extending from the top to the bottom [it is really a Repunched or Re-engraved portion of the left wing] that causes the second three interior feathers to drop low and a Low Dot after “MEXICANA.” that is at the base of the “A”.  This Style of 1864c Eagle also has signs of the Die Doubling across much of the die including some legends and is especially noticeable on the Eagle’s lower wing and tail feathers, it first appeared in the J.B. Parker Collection Sale as Lot#3001 and was the Resplandores Plate Coin.  I have nicknamed it the Alamos “Cracked Wing” Eagle’64c. You will find a nice scan of this bird from another private collection as [As-1864-1301b].

 

As-1864-1301b SAC

A 1868 DL:  Resplandores lists a single Die Style (Style of 1868-1875) for this DAM, but there are two different ones that can easily be identified by looking at the “snake” on the Eagle side of the coin.  The first snake I have nicknamed the “Bar Snake” and the second one is the “X Snake”.  Interestingly there is also a third variety, which has a dot after the assayer’s initial “D.” unlike the first two listed below, which have no dot after the assayer’s initial “D_”.

 

As-1868-1101b DAB “Bar Snake”

 

As-1868-1201b Fox “X Snake”

 A 1869 DL:  And a last Alamos 8 Reales DAM, Resplandores lists no OverDates for this DAM, but we have found one, 9/7 OverDate and possibility a second, a 9/8 OverDate.  We also see two different Eagles: The old “X Snake” Eagle and a new Style of 1869 Eagle.

  

As-1869-1101a Fox “Possible” 9/8 OverDate- New Style of 1868 Eagle

  

As 1869 1102a Fox 9/7 OverDate- New Style of 1869 Eagle

 

 

As-1869-1201a SAC Normal Date- Old “X Snake” Eagle

 Oaxaca Mint 8 Reales:

I love the Oaxaca Mint!  There are so many intriguing and uncataloged varieties from this mint it is hard to know where to start?   Let’s spend our time this issue on some of the more controversial ones.   Be sure to see the Mexican Coin Facts & Figures column in this issue for more information about the Oaxaca 8 Reales.

Ⓐ1860 AE:  Resplandores lists two varieties for this DAM, but we have found four at this time.  Our first uncataloged Oaxaca 8 Reales will be considered to be a ‘minor” variety by most, but it indicates that the dies used in this mint were sometimes pressed into service before they were finished.   The primary “check point” for this variety is the dot missing after “8R_”.  At this time I have seen a single example of this variety and I found it in the Stack’s Amon Carter Sale Lot#2790.

 

Oa-1860-1101a Fox

New Style of 1860 Type#1 Cap- No Dot after the “8R_” Style of 1859 Eagle

 

The second uncataloged variety is much more important.  It uses the Style of 1858 Eagle and a new Style of 1860 Type#2 Cap.  I’m sorry I have been unable to secure a scan of this coin, but I have seen good clear photographs of the coin so at least I can verify it exists.  Hopefully we will be able to borrow this coin in the future to scan and weigh it?

 

Oa-1860-1201

No Scans Currently Available  

New Style of 1860 Type#2 Cap- Dot after the “8R.” Style of 1858 Eagle

 

Here is a scan of the new Style of 1860 Type#2 Cap- for comparison purposes:

 

 

Oa-1860-1301a SAC

New Style of 1860 Type#2 Cap- Dot after the “8R.” Style of 1859 Eagle

 

Of course the final variety for this DAM is the Oa-1860-1401 variety with the New Style of 1860 Type#2 Cap, with a Dot after the “8R.” and the New Oaxaca Style of 1860 Eagle

  

Oa-1860-1401a & b Fox

At this time I would like to use the information found in the FoxLair Mexican Republic 8 Reales Reference Collection© for the Oaxaca Mint, and I quote:

The Oaxaca Mint in 1861

I have been asked numerous times by dealers and collectors alike if I personally believe the theory that Dunigan & Parker put forth in Resplandores about there being two mints in Oaxaca from 1861 until 1864.  I always answer the question this way; “There are two distinctive styles of 8 Reales during this (1861 to 1862) period of time.  I have no doubt these two different styles of 8 Reales were produced on very different types of equipment, maybe different coin presses.  However, I cannot prove or disprove that these coins were minted in the same building or even the same city within Oaxaca.” 

In order to handle these two completely different styles of Oaxaca 1861 8 Reales, I will designate them as the Style of 1861 Type#1 for the single style, found so far, with the “O” only Mintmark that closely resemble the Mexico City 8 Reales of this period. The second style with the “Ⓐ”Mintmark, which is surely a product of the Oaxaca Mint only, has four (at this time) different Cap dies and they are designated the Style of 1861: Type#2, Type#3, Type#4, or Type#5 depending on which of the four different “a” within the “O” Mintmark style Cap dies are employed on the coin.   Please remember there could be additional Cap and Eagle dies I haven’t seen yet!

O 1861 AE:  Special Note- This is a very interesting DAM for Oaxaca Republican 8 Reales!  This is the first time that this basic style of dies shows up in Oaxaca.  If you are a student of Oaxaca, or a serious collector of 8 Reales, you have already noted that these coins look very much like the 8 Reales that were being minted in Mexico City at this time.  This DAM is normally a beautiful coin, and has none of the crudeness associated with the earlier or later Oaxaca 8 Reales.  If I didn’t know different, I might think Oaxaca was producing 8 Reales with hubs supplied by Mexico City.  But there are no clues or indications Oaxaca was hubbing anything at this time.  Only the Mexico City Style of 1848 Cap Dies and the Style of 1851 Eagle dies have been found on this DAM, and I have noted only two varieties.  However, this should not discourage us from closely examining all coins from this DAM for other varieties made from unusual die pairings.  

 

Oa-1861-1102a & b SAC

New Style of 1861 Type#1 Cap & New Mexico City-Oaxaca Style of 1861- Type#1 Eagle

Ⓐ1861 AE:  Special Note- Life now becomes even more confusing and complicated for the “8 Reales Variety Collector” with this second Oaxaca 1861 8 Reales DAM, so bear with my long and somewhat complex explanation of this DAM because you must remember I personally believe these dies were all hand-punched. 

At first glance one might think that all of the coins from this DAM come from the same die pair, but believe me this is not the case!  One must closely study any and all 8 Reales from this DAM because there are recent reports, or I guess I should call them “rumors”, that speak of varieties here-to-before uncataloged reaching the numismatic market.  These “rumors” indicate that all of the previously known Oaxaca Eagles: the Style of 1858; the Style of 1859; the Style of 1860; and all of the Styles of 1861 including at least one coin having a Mexico City-Oaxaca Style of 1861 Type#1 Eagle, which I personally doubt until I see this coin or a good photo reproduction of it, show up on this single DAM. 

Many of these “new” 8 Reales are all suppose to be from a single large hoard that I have nicknamed the “Millennium Hoard”.  I have seen and actually bought a few coins from this hoard and hopefully I will be able to secure more information about this fantastic hoard sometime in the future.

Most of the coins from this DAM have terrible Cap side strikes and have long been thought to all be from a single die, or at least die style, but our assumptions are again proven wrong by the coins!  Many of the flans from this DAM have varying degrees of porosity, that many times show up on the Cap Side, making positive identification of the Cap Die almost impossible on many examples.  I have scanned for you the very best coins that I have found so far, and there are at least four, possibly five, or maybe even more different “styles” or varieties of Cap Dies for this DAM. At least five different positively identified individual Eagle dies were used for this DAM.  I’m listing all of the die pairings below that I have been told exist, even though I currently find it hard to believe:

Here are the confirmed and scanned varieties of the Ⓐ1861 AE Oaxaca 8 Reales:   

 

Oa-1861-2401a & b Fox

Style of 1861 Type#2 Cap & Oaxaca Eagle Style of 1859

 

Oa-1861-2402a & b Fox  

Style of 1861 Type#2 Cap & Oaxaca Eagle Style of 1861 Type#2 Double Body Snake

 

 

Oa-1861-2403a & b DAB

Style of 1861 Type#2 Cap 2nd Large 1/small 1 Oaxaca Double Headed Eagle Style of 1861 Type#3

  

Oa-1861-2404a & b Fox

Style of 1861 Type#4 Cap Low 2nd 1 & Oaxaca Die Doubled with Large “V” Under Right Wing

Style of 1861 Type#4 Eagle

 

 

Oa-1861-2405a & b Fox

Style of 1861 Cap Type#5 861/861 Repunched Date & FR/FR Repunched Assayer

Sunburst Doubled with Large “V” Under Right Wing Style of 1861 Type#5 Eagle

 

 

Oa-1861-2406a & b Fox

Style of 1861 Cap Type#2 2nd Large 1/small 1 Repunched Date & Assayer

Sunburst Doubled with Large “V” Under Right Wing Style of 1861 Type#5 Eagle

As you can guess there are many other interesting and controversial varieties of 8 Reales from the Oaxaca Mint, and if you would like more information we recommend you contact us FoxLairAJ@aol.com or place an order for the FoxLair Mexican Republic 8 Reales Reference Collection© for the Oaxaca Mint.

 Zacatecas Mint 8 Reales:

The Zacatecas Mint has many interesting and undocumented varieties for the 8 Real series.  Because long thought to have very few extreme rarities this mint has seen very little information published about its coins in the past.  However as Mexican Numismatics begins to mature I’m sure this will change.

Zs 1831 OV:  Resplandores lists no varieties for this DAM, but we have found three different varieties to date.  An interesting variety [Zs-1831-1103] showed up on eBay in December 2004. There is some controversy about this specimen; more than one expert believes it is a Contemporary Counterfeit for several reasons:

  1. The Leaves (11) on the Eagle side are somewhat different and we find six berries
  2. The Edge Design changes direction at about 180 degrees
  3. The coin is light (25.9 grams), but this isn’t all that unusual for the early Zacatecas 8 Reales
  4. The Flan is sorta Oval; again not unusual for early Zacatecas and Potosi 8 Reales
  5. Finally the undocumented Error No “B” in “REPU_LICA”

 

 

Zs-1831-1103b & a SAC Error No “B” in “REPU_LICA” Style of 1828 Eagle

 Zs 1833 OM:  Resplandores lists only two different varieties, a Normal Date and a 2nd 3/2 OverDate for this DAM, however we have found nine so far.  Most of them are rather mundane, but _ need to be known to all serious 8 Reales collectors.  The first one is an Error coin having a “7” punched in the die in place of the “Z” in the mintmark.  This Error Mintmark seems to appear in two years: 1833 and 1834.  There are also varieties with the regular “Z” mintmarks in both years and it isn’t a terribly rare error; I have seen examples several in other collections of advanced 8 Reales collectors where they too have noted it.

 

Zs-1833-1101a & b Fox Error “7S” Mintmark Style of 1828 Eagle

Our second interesting variety is also an Error coin with No “s” after “20G_.” and where the “3s” in the Date are made with Inverted “2s”.  This variety appears to be Excessively Rare; I know of only one specimen existing at this time.

 

 

Zs-1833-2101a & b Fox Error No “S” after “20G_.” Fineness

Style of 1828 Eagle with Regular Legend Spacing

The third unusual variety is reported to be a OM/MM OverAssayer, but I do not have photographs or scans of the coin, therefore I’m unable to confirm it

Beware- this is also the first appearance of the “closed” Eagle “REPUBLICAMEXICANA.” legends that I have found and that I have listed as the Style of 1833.  There is a possibility that this variety could appear even earlier, but I have not seen one at this time. I would assume that it should appear in most years from 1833 until at least 1841, however I have not yet found it in all of these years so be sure to study closely any Zacatecas 8 Reales in your collection or offered to you because they seem to be much rarer than normal Style of 1828 coins.  My specimen also has the “s” in the Regular Mintmark repunched “s/s”.

 

Zs-1833-2201b Fox New Closed “REPUBLICAMEXICANA.” Style of 1833 Eagle

Zs 1834 OM:  Resplandores lists no varieties for this DAM, but again we find several that should be of interest to serious Zacatecas 8 Reales collectors.  We find both the Style of 1828 and Style of 1833 Eagle dies, and the regular “ZS” mintmark and the Error “7S” mintmark, plus an uncataloged 4/3 OverDate.  The Error “7S” Mintmark has the unlisted OverDate and uses both styles of Eagle dies, and the regular “ZS” mintmark also uses both styles of Eagle dies.

 

 

Zs-1834-1101a Fox Error Mintmark “7S” 4/3 OverDate Style of 1828 Eagle

Ex Norweb Lot#339

 Zs 1835 OM:  Resplandores lists no varieties for this DAM, but again find a few.  We find both the Style of 1828 and Style of 1833 Eagle dies, and the regular “ZS” mintmark, but the Error “7S” mintmark seems to have disappeared, plus have an uncataloged 5/4 OverDate. 

Dunigan & Parker do not list the 5/4 OverDate, and yet they agreed with my attribution and photographed my variety [Zs-1835-1101] coin, but it was not shown or listed in Resplandores, oversight or a change in their mind? All of the coins from this DAM that I have personally seen, except J.B. Parker’s specimen have the Closed “REPUBLICAMEXICANA.” that first appeared on some production 8 Reales in 1833.

 

Zs-1835-1101a Fox 5/4 OverDate Style of 1833 Eagle

 

Zs 1870 YH:  Resplandores lists no varieties of this, the rarest of the Zacatecas 8 Reales, however a very controversial coin came up for sale on eBay in April 2004.  Several advanced 8 Reales collectors contacted me about this coin.  We had many phone and email communications about it.  I personally thought there was a good chance it could be a “contemporary counterfeit” at the time, but several of us decided we would buy this coin together, hoping that it might not become too pricey to purchase.  We were successful in our attempt to buy it.  Today, it is still the opinion of most people that it is a “bad” coin, being either an altered date or a contemporary counterfeit.  We have examined the coin closely and cannot find any signs of an altered date.  The coin, if it is real, is not from the same die pair as the J.B. Parker specimen and Mike Dunigan is under the opinion that only a single die pairing was used to make this hideously rare DAM.  His reasoning is that this was a transitional year where the Zacatecas Mint was in a conversion to the decimal coinage and they made very few 8 Reales in 1870.  However, we know that many of the Zacatecas 8 Reales from the late 1860s and early 1870s were shipped to China for trade purposes, this coin and another one with the same die pair were offered by a man from China.  It uses the correct die style for the period, the Style of 1846, weighs 26.6 grams, which is in the tolerance we have found for Zacatecas 8 Reales and we cannot find signs of any alterations on the coin.  I question is: Is this coin real or is it a good forgery?  

  

Zs-1870-1102 Fox

Well I guess this is enough for this time, even though we have only scratched the surface of the 8 Reales.  Would you like to see more unpublished 8 Reales, 8 Escudos, minor gold or whatever?  If you would like us to change gears on this page let us know what area of Mexican Numismatics you would like to see us cover in the future on the Mexican Coin Magic Back Page.

[Table of Contents] Return to the Table of Contents Volume 1 Issue 3

[Home Page] Return to Mexican Coin Magic Home Page