(512) The Mexican Coin Answer Man: Volume 1 Issue 5: Last Revision: 12/20/05
A Few New Questions and Comments For This Issue:
Recently we have had two readers ask if it was okay to print out copies of Mexican Coin Magic to save in binders as reference material? Of course our answer to this question is an emphatic, yes! We believe any reader that wants to save information found on this website should print any data they find useful. However, if you want to use this data for some other purpose other than for your personal use, you must contact us for specific permission.
We have had a number of good questions since Issue 4, and surprisingly we have been able to answer most. Below are a few of the more recent and better ones. We have also had a number of new Mexican coin collectors sign up for our emails from all over the world. The majority haven't wanted to be posted on our website, which is a shame, but I fully understand with all of the problems of today's world.
Once recent registration form was from a (believe it or not) Mexican Republic 8 Escudo collector in "jolly old England" who told us we doing a great service for Mexican Numismatics. Thanks, John. He also said our Internet Collector Registration Form isn't working. We will work on this before Issue 6 is posted. Until then I suggest you copy it and mail it to us, until the problem is fixed.
Recently I had a rather young, and new collector from Mexico spend a couple of days with me looking at a few nice 8 Reales in order to supplement his collection. He later emailed me telling me how much he enjoyed the visit and the Mexican Coin Magic website. He closed by saying he thought the information we were presenting on the website about the history of Mexico and the old collectors was a great help to new collectors. I have talked him into writing about how he got started collecting and his experiences that will appear in a future issue.
We hope all of you reading Mexican Coin Magic will gain a little information you need and want here. And remember ... we always solicit your questions and any article you want to write about Mexican coins, collecting them or your personal experiences!
Question #1:
I have a 1988 Madero $500 coin, it look silver in color and on the back is a eagle with a snake in its mouth. it is about 3 1/2 in diameter. I'm sorry that is all I know about the coin. If he was order shot, in 1913 then how is it that the coin I have was made in 1988?
Answer #1:
Sir, the coin you have is a 500 pesos piece. Its composition is 75% copper and 25% nickel also referred as cupro-nickel. It's silver appearance is somewhat confusing to non-collectors.
It no longer has any commercial value in Mexico as the country revalued it's currency in 1992. As a result, all coinage and paper money dated 1991 and earlier was declared null and void after a specified time period when people could bring in their old coins and trade them for the new ones the designated exchange rate.
The coin has some value as a collector piece, but is worth very little unless it is in mint state condition.
The answer to your second question is that in the 20th Century Mexico began recognizing historical figures by placing a likeness of certain individuals on their coinage. That is similar to the US where you have Lincoln cents, Jefferson nickels, Roosevelt dimes, Washington quarters, Kennedy halves and Eisenhower dollars despite the fact that all died before the coins were authorized and minted.
One interesting side note to your coin is the famous Revolutionary peso minted in Cuencame, Durango while Pancho Villa occupied that area. Part of the legend on the Eagle side says MUERA HUERTA, which translates as "Death to Huerta." Huerta was the general who assassinated Madero and Villa along with two other Generals Cemceros and Contreras vowed revenge and authorized the striking of the coin to should their sincerity. That coin (it is silver) is called a Muera Huerta in Mexico and the Death Peso in the US. The gold 20 pesos of a similar design is a modern fantasy and was never produced in any official capacity.
Thank you for your interest and please feel free to contact us anytime you have questions regarding the Coins of Mexico.
Dave Busse
The Mexican Coin Magic Answer Man
Question #2:
Subject: Re: Please help me identify this Ralph
Hi Ralph!
I spoke with Tina on the phone and she said that you might call me back. Since I have not heard from you, I decided to send you some pics of the coin in question.
The date 1714 is visible, but the bottom of the numbers are much stronger than the top. It has 3 fluer dilei in a shield, 2 rampant lions and a small bar. There is also one castle in the corner. It has the letters oMJ and I think that is the Mexico City mint and I believe it is a coin from the Felipe V reign during the Colonial period. On the other side is, oh well, you will see the 2 attached pics. The coin is the size of a penny and just about as thick.
I was wondering if you knew exactly what it was, the denomination and possibly it's value, as it was given to me towards a 100.00 debt.
Thanks and regards, Mark
Answer #2: Part 1
Dear Mark:
Glad to hear from you, I hope we can help you. I've been working day and night trying to get the next issue of Mexican Coin Magic ready to post on the Internet before Christmas, so I have been working odd hours. It was after 11:00 PM your time in Florida when I finally got up, so I elected not to call you tonight. Some people get upset if I call too late.
First, let me say that any early cob Mexican gold piece, if real, is worth $100 or more. From the scans I'd say you did alright with the trade.
However, I'm not an early Colonial Gold expert, my area is the Republic Period Gold from 1823 to 1905. So I'm forwarding your email, scans and phone number to the Colonial Coin Expert in our little group of Mexican Coin Freaks. Dave Busse is his name and he will be getting in contact with you to try to answer your questions.
Ralph Poucher
Answer #2: Part 2
Hello Mark, I'll try to answer your questions regarding the gold coin that you have. By the way, thanks for the scans. In case you are not aware, the term "cob" refers to hand struck coins - both gold and silver - minted during the reigns of Philip II, III, IV' Carlos II, Philip V, and Luis I.
First, from the scan of the date side, it looks pretty good, though I can't be sure if it is genuine or tell if it is a 1 escudo (1E) or a 2 escudos (2E) of Philip V. The denomination should be to the right of the Shield and would be a Roman I or II depending on which denomination. Keep in mind that size is not the determinant with the Latin American gold or silver cobs. The pieces used when the coins were struck were clipped from a bar of the appropriate metal, then they were weighed, and if necessary again re-clipped or filed down until they were the correct weight. Then, regardless of size or shape, the piece was roughly centered on a die that was held in place in a anvil or similar implement. A worker would then position by hand the top die over the gold/silver piece and the upper die would be struck with a large hammer (sometimes by that worker and sometimes by another). Many coins of that period are dateless because as you can see by your coin the date was on the perimeter and often the diameter of planchet/flan was much smaller than the die. The primary objective of those coin makers was to make sure the Mint Mark and the Assayer's Initial was readable as the Spanish Crown authorities wanted to insure the coin contained the proper amount of precious metal, either silver or gold.
In today's market, if it is a fake, but the gold is genuine, it would have at least the gold melt value of around $150+ for a 1E and $300+ if it is a 2E. Assuming it is genuine, it would have more value than melt to a collector, just how much would depend on its condition and past use. For example, if it has been used as a jewelry piece or has been harshly cleaned those factors would lower its value to collectors. You should keep in mind that there are a large number of fake gold cobs from that period and/or modern counterfeits. From your scans, it appears that there is a hole in the coin. That could indicate a cast piece in which case it would surely be a fake as all genuine pieces were hand struck. Of course it could also be a hole punched into the coin after it was struck which was fairly common for that period as people would hole the coins and run a leather thong/strip through them in order to keep them together as not many people had pants pockets in those days.
If you have an accurate scale - meaning accurate to at least a tenth of a gram - the first thing you should do is weigh the coin. If it is a 1E it should weigh 3.380 grams or close to that, if is it is a 2E it should weigh close to 6.770 grams. Another really good measurement is to conduct a specific gravity test on the coin in order to make sure the gold is of the proper fineness (91.7% gold and the rest copper). However, conducting a specific gravity test is not usually necessary. One sure way to determine its authenticity is to send it to the American Numismatic Association and ask them to give you their opinion as to whether or not it is genuine. However, they do charge a fee, usually at least $40 for the service. So if you don't want to spend that much, you can send it to Ralph and/or me and we will weigh it, look for signs of authenticity and give you our opinion, and then send it back to you. We have done this for a large number of people already. All we ask is that you pay postage both ways and allow us to scan the piece in order to add it to our Reference Collection. We keep scans of both genuine and fake pieces. We will note in our Reference Collection that you are the owner if you so desire. Be careful as collecting gold and silver cobs can start quite innocently - such as acquiring a piece as partial payment of a debt - but it can be addictive as the coins are not only beautiful in their own right, they are also a genuine and alluring piece of history that provides you with a tangible link to our past.
I hope the information has been useful.
Sincerely,
Dave Busse,
The Mexican Coin Magic Answer Man
Question #3:
We have several old Mexican coins that we may be interested in selling, they range form 1845 *r Zs 1845 O M 10D 20G), and 1889 ( 8R Zs 1889 F Z 10D 20G). What would we need to do?
Answer #3:
Hello Adela, the two coins you have are 8 Reales (ocho reales). Both were minted at the Zacatecas Mint during the Republic Era of Mexico.
The star indicates the beginning of the legend
The 8R is the denomination (8 Reales)
The Zs is an abbreviation for Zacatecas.
The Date is self explanatory
The OM on the 1845 piece are the initials of the Assayers Manuel Ochoa and Manuel Miner. The FZ on the 1889 piece are the initials of Francisco de Zarate.
The 10 Ds 20 Gs indicates the fineness of the silver. In the Real System used by Mexico at that time pure silver was 12 Dineros (Ds) and each Dinero could be divided into 24 Granos (Gs). Thus, 10 Ds 20 Gs represents 10 of 12 Dineros and additional 20 of 24 Granos, converting that to a percentage would equate to 90.27% silver which was exactly the same as a US silver dollar for your 1845 coin and slightly more than a US silver dollar for your 1889 coin.
Both coins are common and the retail value could run from 8-10 dollars for a low grade piece to upwards of a $100 if the coin was in mint state.
We hope this information answers your questions.
Dave Busse,
The Mexican Coin Magic Answer Man
Question #4:
How can we found out the value of some Mexican coins, that date back all the way to 1834?
Answer #4:
Hello Adela, there are several coin catalogs that will give you some idea of what specific coins of Mexico are worth. Probably the most popular are those printed by Krause Publications - www.collect.com is their web site and you can click on Coins and Paper Money, which will take to where you want to go. Think the latest catalog is around $18 plus postage.
Keep in mind that Mexican Coins, especially those of the Colonial and Republic Eras are priced in relation to their condition. Early - pre-1850 - coin in pristine mint state usually bring more than catalog values (assuming they are not Hoard Dates) while lower grade specimens seldom bring even half catalog value unless they are Rare.
Hope the information was helpful.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Dave Busse,
The Mexican Coin Magic Answer Man
Question #5:
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: 8r zs 1870
Did you see the following eBay auction?
A china man is offering an 8r zs 1870 that appears to be very close to the same dies as the one in Resplandores.
Does it look fake to you? The only thing I see unusual is that it has a grainy surface.
Answer #5:
Hard to tell. The Chinese are the best there is at altering dates and making fakes. That's one of those that the Third Party Graders would never authenticate. So all you can do is hope for the best. Also, check out the DOT after the superscript S in the mint mark, first one I've seen that large in that spot.
Kirk pointed out the area around the '7' as evidence that it is an altered date. He also said the '7' is different than the original.
Dave Busse
Question #6: Special Note: This Mexican Coin Magic reader doesn't want to be identified in this exchange, so I have agreed to keep his identity secret for now.
Ralph ... now to coins. I've been studying some of my 8 Reales over the weekend. I've got a question on the Alamos 1869 I bought from you two weeks ago. I presume that before you sold it to me, you scanned it. I'm looking at the SOB under 5X, 10X, and the 30X of my stereomicroscope. No matter how I "twitch" it, it looks like a 9/8 overdate! I know that Dunigan and Parker say it's a die chip or some such......but I just don't agree with them. When you get a chance, would you please pull up your scan of the coin, jack it up to as high a magnification as you can get and look at it carefully. Am I losing it, or do you also think that it's a legitimate 9/8 OD?
Answer #6:
Dear Secret Cap & Rays Collector:
Notice your invoice, I put this note on it, "Possible 9/8 OverDate". Yes, I agree with your attribution of this coin. Originally when I purchased this coin the seller attributed it as the 9/8 OverDate. However, later while working on Resplandores, the seller Mike Dunigan, no longer accepted this attribution. Strange, but true and who am I to argue this point with Mike, so I list it [FoxLair # 8R-As-1869-1101] only as a Possible 9/8 OverDate in the FoxLair Reference Collection.
That's all for now, and remember we love tackling all of your questions or just hearing from you.