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(912) The Mexican Coin Answer Man: Volume 2 Issue 8: Last Revision: 08/17/07

We have had almost 100 email comments and questions since Issue #7 of MCM; we have tried to answer each and every one of them, sometimes belatedly. Here are more of the most interesting ones for our readers.

First a few comments about Mexican Coin Magic:

Comment #1:

I didn’t forget you! I wanted to properly review all of the information you sent me and I will reply. I have been so busy lately, I have not had time to relax and study numismatics. From your online review, I went out and purchased the British Numismatic Journal with Richard Doty’s article on Soho and Guanajuato. Very interesting! I don’t know if you know, but there are some good Buttrey articles in various ANS Museum Notes issues. I can get you more details on which issues and what articles when I get back from Chicago (Sunday).

You also mentioned Angel having some patterns (from you???). But I no longer have Angel’s email address (he changed it and the old one I have does not work) to ask him about them.

I am a relatively young (26) collector, fascinated with portrait and Republican 8 Reales coins, and wanted to thank you for creating your website. It’s a fantastic source of information and I hope there are plans to continue the Issues.

Issue #7 is excellent -- I've enjoyed the items I've had time to read, and
will eventually get to the rest.

Holland

I was beginning to wonder what happened to you guys in the Valley. I thought that perhaps you all dried up and blew away. However, I could not have been any more "wrong". I see now that you all have been busy working hard on producing a great addition to Mexican Coin Magic. While I have not had a chance to do any reading of the new information, a quick glance in the Silver Minors sections shows just what a great job you all did. Obviously a great document and I look forward to reading more.

Hello Ralph!
Just finished a 'quick read' of the article entitled THE REPUBLICAN
SILVER MINOR REALES authored by you, Dave Busse, Kirk Menczer and
Erik Bedolla (whom I do not know). Thought the article was great!!! I
do have a couple of informational tidbits for you on Zacatecas 1
Reales. I have an old, old notation of an 1857 Zs OM in EF grade either
listed or having been sold for $480.00. Don't know anything more on
it...just the old listing that may or may not be accurate. I would
estimate the notation is at least 15 years old and could be
considerably older than that. The second comment I have concerns an
1860 Zs MO 1 Real which is generally unknown...can't recall if it's
listed in Krause now or not...if so, I probably gave them the info
after I obtained my specimen of the coin. I'm aware of two
specimens...one a low to mid level circulated coin and the other a
fantastic choice BU!

I continue to work and generally have more on my plate than I would
like to. Needless to say that cuts into my time for coins. I have so
much enjoyed reading the MEXICAN COIN MAGIC articles. They certainly
help me up here in the 'far north' in maintaining some level of contact
with Mexican coin events. Thank you for all your efforts.

Regards,
Len

I am enjoying reading your recent issue of Mexican coin magic. In the article on minor Mexican real coinage you have a picture of the qtr real of Go 1851 with a reversed 'R' in 'Republica'.

After seeing this I checked my picture file and saw that there are at least 2 dies for this error. The one you pictured, and the die that I am sending you an image for. You will notice that the difference is in the placement of the reversed 'R' relative to the next letter.

This picture is from a coin I had bought a while back for about $4, where the variety had not even been mentioned in the auction.

Another interesting note is the 1830 and 1831 1R Go coins with the reversed 'N' in 'Mexicana'. I was just studying my pictures of the coins I have of this date and I noticed that the reverses of both coins where the errors occur were struck from the same die. I had always suspected this but had never taken the time before to confirm it.

One last note is the 1R Go 1830 and 1832. Both large and small eagles had been produced in 1829, 1831, and 1832. All I have seen so far in 1830 is the large eagles, but it is very likely that small eagles exist for that date. I have only seen 1 large eagle in 1832, and over 25 examples of that date with the small eagle. This was probably struck from a left over reverse die from 1831. I would say that the large eagle reverse of 1832 in Go is at least scarce, while the small eagle variety is common.

Short about Myself: Coin collector/numismaticer; and 62 years old in the end of this Year.

Born and living in a cold country named Sweden, living nearby the town Gothenburgh at the western side. No icebears on the street, but elks are very common!!!!! One side of my collection was Mexican coins: 8 Reales and Pesos. Beautiful too see and hold it in hand, was a pleasure. Not soo many left in my collection today, real pity, but some numismatic literature books is still in my library:

We would love for you to write a column about your specialty every issue. Or just contribute something when you feel like it. Several of our readers have made mention that we spend too much time on 8 Reales and Republican Gold, but these are my areas of specialty where I have gather a lot of information during the last 20+ years.

Kent Ponterio is starting a new column in the next issue with the emphases on the Colonial Era. We have finally got enough minor Republic collectors interested enough to do one column every issue about them.

Yes, Joe who better than MR Viva Revolution to have as the expert MCM columnist for the Revolutionary coins than you?

Good morning have two 8 reales Cap and Rays 1859 FH coins BUnc I was wondering how much you would pay for these. I am not sure on their worth. Thank you, waiting for your reply.

Hello Roland, the 2 Mexico City 8R could be worth (retail) anywhere from about $45 to about $150 depending on how nice. The 1859 is a Hoard Coin and does come nice. Without seeing the actual coin, it would be difficult to be more specific as to the retail value. Dealers would pay somewhat less than retail.

Hi -
My interest is in the Brockages and dramatic Double
Strikes of the World.

I remember trying a few times for double struck Mexican
crowns of the 1870's in major auctions over the years, only
to be beaten out (I believe) by Mike Dunigan.

Might you consider doing an article on Mexican errors?

By the way, if you would like to exchange Web links,
you can find me at -
http://www.WorldErrors.com.

Hello Bill, pleased to make your acquaintance. We agree most heartily that
an article or even a series of articles on Mexican Errors would be
interesting and enjoyed by most of our readers. If you would like to do one,
we would be most happy to print it in an upcoming issue. If you want we can
combine our efforts or if you want us to do it, we would be happy to do so
and if you have any information and photos/scans that we could include, it
would be most helpful.

You have joined a long list of collectors and dealers who have been outbid
by Mike Dunigan. While he is arguably the dealer who handles more Mexican
Rarities than any other, he can be quite tenacious when going after certain
items.

We appreciate your supplying us with your website, I have already put it on
my favorites list.

Thank you for contacting us.

Sincerely,

Dave Busse,
Numismatist
Mexican Coin Magic

I couldn't think of a better expert to review an unusual Oaxaca 8 Reales I was asked to take a look from a friend's collection.

Attached are scans of the obverse and reverse of his 1875/4 Oaxaca 8R which appears to have the reverse of the 1874 type.

I compared it to the varieties in your FoxLair Oaxaca file, which I purchased from you a few years back, and I could not find an example of this variety.

First Wow! Great looking coin. I've gone through all of my scans, both old and new, and done a quick study. Here are my findings:

The Cap & Rays Die: appears to be my Oa-1875-1201a, which isn't a 5/4 OverDate. I blew the scan up a couple of hundred times and saw no sign of the OverDate. Great strike and choice other than the small scratch on the Cap. This is a rather common die.

The Eagle Die: this is another story altogether! First I checked all of the Oaxaca 1875 Eagle dies I have recorded- nada. Next I went to the Oaxaca 1874 Eagle dies- again nada. Next I went to the Oaxaca 1876 Eagle dies- walla. There it is ... I believe, because the scan of one from my collection isn't as nice as this one, you will find this is the Oa-1976-1201b Eagle die. I have never seen this combo of dies before!

Again, it sorta proves my theory that the dates on many Oaxaca 8 Reales, and maybe other coins too, doesn't mean a thing. This mint seems to have struck coins from whatever dies were in the current Inventory when they needed multiple presses to fill an order. This coin is the latest Oaxaca 8 Reales that sorta proves this point found so far that I'm aware of.

Issue #3: Mexican Coin Facts & Figures: Coin Legends: Fact or Fiction? An Analysis of the Early Oaxaca 8 Reales)

Now to the value of the coin. I recently sold two choice Mint State coins from 1875 and 1976 for $350 each. Except for the tiny scratch on the Cap this coin qualifies, but with the unrecorded die pairing it should be worth more. The question is how much more? I believe you can probably ask $500 or slightly more and probably get it from the right collector.

I personally believe the sale of Mike McCormick's 8 Reales collection by Ponterio, in a series of sales starting in September 2006, and continuing next year will greatly increase the overall market for Cap & Ray 8 Reales. But without a crystal ball I can't be sure? These sales could increase the value even more on this coin after we see what the Oaxaca 8 Reales bring in these sales.

I hope this answers your questions? With your permission I will use this in our Q&A section of the website?

Hello there I recently read your web page and was excited about all the valuable information. How do I get on your mailing list?

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Hello--
I have what I believe to be a Mexican silver dollar. Since I don't have an
operable scanner, I'll give you a description:

It is 37 mm. in diameter with ridges around the perimeter. One side has a
representation of an eagle standing on a cactus with one leg. The eagle's
head is turned toward the left, and it's holding a what appears to be a
ribbon in it's mouth and in it's other foot (the one not on the
cactus). It says "Republica Mexicana" around the top, and there are
branches with leaves around the bottom, with what appears to be a rock in
the bottom center.

The other side shows something in the center that looks like a cap with the
word "Libertad" on it. Around this is a sunburst effect. Around the
bottom is : * 8 R . Z . 1 8 2 8 . A . O . 1 O D . 2 0 G . It is a little
worn in spots. Appears to be tarnished silver.

I don't have a proper scale, but the coin is weighty.

Can you tell me what this coin is and how much it is worth?

Hello Melissa, thank you for your interest in Mexican Coin Magic and your question.

Your coin is a Mexican Ocho Reales represented by the "8R" on the Cap Side Legend. Often referred to as a Piece of Eight, it was the equivalent of a US silver dollar and was in fact the basis for our silver dollar (by US law) until 1857. After that the US silver dollar contained slightly less silver than did the Mexican 8R.

The Zs (it should have a superscript "s" to he upper right of the Z) stands for Zacatecas, which was the mint in which it was struck. Obviously the date is 1828. A.O. are the initials of the assayer, probably Adalco, but we are not sure. The 10Ds 20Gs tells us the fineness of the metal. The Real system used Dineros as a Fineness designator. Pure silver was 12 Dineros and each Dinero was divided into 24 Granos. Thus, the 10Ds 20Gs meant 10/12 plus 20/24 of 1 out of a possible 12. Converting that to the decimal system shows that the silver Fineness was 90.027% with the remainder being copper. Until the US went off the silver standard our coins contained 90% silver and 10% copper. The standard weight for your coin is 27.07 grams, which could vary slightly as the minting processes were not always exact in those days. The standard diameter should be 39 mm but again that could vary slightly from mint to mint and from year to year or even from one set of dies to another.

The Eagle Side is represented by the ancient Aztec Victory Symbol which is an Eagle perched on a Nopal Cactus rising out of Lake Texcoco (the lake beside which Mexico City was founded). The Eagle is grasping a water snake in its beak and one of its claws. That design first appeared in 1823 and continues to be used on Mexican coins today though it is somewhat more stylized on modern issues.

The coin is "Somewhat Common" according to the Dunigan-Parker work, RESPLANDORES - Cap and Rays 8 Reales of the Republic of Mexico 1823 - 1897. According to current Pricing Catalogs the Retail Value would range from about $15 in Fine Condition to about $165 in Uncirculated condition. Dealers would pay somewhat less for it as they would intend to sell it at retail. You should check the date closely as it might be an 1828/7, meaning the last 8 in the date is punched over a 7. That would make it more valuable, perhaps twice the above figures. For the more common Republic of Mexico coins condition is everything. True Uncirculated pieces command significantly more than do circulated examples. However, there are Rare to Excessively Rare coins that fetch high prices in just about any condition, one example would be the Durango (Mint) One Real (1/8 of an 8 Reales) struck in 1824, currently there are about 20 known examples and none are in high grade.

Dear Mr. Poucher, I have thoroughly enjoyed the Mexican Coin Magic website. I believe it is the best site I have found on the Internet for the numismatist. If one wants to learn about Mexican coinage, one does not have to go further. A college degree in Mexican coinage could be earned by mastering the information on this site! I was introduced to the site by my close friend, and fellow collector, Alex Siegel. He speaks VERY highly of you, by the way! (Please try to keep Alex off boat trailers!) Although the coinage of Mexico does not generally "turn me on", I have bought a number of Mexican coins. I guess you might call me a "condition freak", trying to buy only high grade examples. My specialty is European coinage and world currency. As I read the articles on the Mexican Coin Magic site, the concept of "finest known" comes up in more than one article. I would enjoy reading an article about "finest known". I have a number of coins which I have been led to believe are "finest known". But I am "bothered" that this is a BIG world, that the United States is not the home country to foreign coins, so how could I own an example, which is "the finest known"? I realize that "finest known" means "finest known in my experience" (the person making the claim). When someone like Mike Dunigan makes this statement, his comment I presume is as "close to gospel" as one can get! But, with no disrespect meant, there could be somewhere "out there" a finer known specimen. Most of the great collections have been dispersed and the finest known(s) discovered. So the reality is, I suspect, that most "finest knowns" are truly the "finest knowns". Thank you for taking the time to read this. I believe an academic article by one of your contributors, or several views on "finest known" and what goes into making this statement, would make an interesting addition to the Mexican Coin Magic web site. Martin Kaplan, Houston

Thanks for the great review and comments about Mexican Coin Magic. As for Alex; he is a great friend, a wonderful mentor, the consummate collector, and don’t worry he will never get close to my boat trailer again! (For those of you who don’t know Alex, or anything about the “boat trailer incident” and want to know more call me.)

It’s a shame we can’t get you more interested in Mexican Coins, but we all have a few faults. Your question about “THE finest known” is surely a great question and as you pointed out deserves a future article. However, let’s tackle the question on a small scale for now.

When dealing with any collectable two things drive the prices asked: (1) The Overall Rarity (2) The Condition Rarity of the item. Some collectables (coins, movie posters, model trains, etc.) can easily be found in used condition, but are extreme rarities in new condition. Other items are extreme rarities in any condition. In my personal opinion the introduction of third party coin grading and the American mindset of wanting to own only the “best” things have caused prices for US coins to get out of control.

Today, when we talk about the importance of condition rarity of Mexican Coins some people become very angry. There are Mexican Coin Collectors, just like you, who are “condition freaks”. These collectors want only the “best” coins. But how can the average, or even the advanced Mexican coin collector know which coin is the best? For US coins one can now find numerous population studies that are the direct result of Dr. Shelton’s analysis of US Large Cents and David Akers analysis of the US Gold Eagles. Once US coin dealers found out about “condition freaks” it didn’t take long for them to capitalize on this knowledge. Recently David Q. Bowers (Coin World 07/16/07 page 46) wrote an article Lure of ‘good old days’ about coin collecting in the 1960s where he states, “Numismatics was a game, a wonderful one. Few books were available, in comparison to today, and most of those had no pricing information. ….”. Bowers seems to give his readers the idea that some of the fun and excitement of coin collecting has diminished over the years, and I tend to agree with him when I look at US Numismatics. But I don’t agree that this is the case with foreign coins, especially Mexican coins. There are still many new varieties to be discovered. There are still many of “THE finest known” coins to be found. There are still many denominations that need authoritative books to be written. Yes, in my personal opinion there is still much fun to be found collecting Mexican Coins.

As you pointed out Mike Dunigan has long been recognized as the best (and only) source for two items: (1) The Overall Rarity (2) The Condition Rarity of all Mexican Coins for collectors. Beyond any doubt there are two people in the world who have seen more Mexican Coins than anyone else. They are Mike Dunigan and Clyde Hubbard; both are among the most highly respected authorities on all periods of Mexican coins. Both have authored great books in selected fields of Mexican Numismatics. And both may, or may not, give an individual collector their opinions about (1) The Overall Rarity (2) The Condition Rarity of specific coins depending on how they feel about you on the day they are contacted.

But what about the rest of us? How are new collectors and non-customers supposed to know what Mexican coins are rare (in any condition) which are not? You certainly can’t depend on current pricing catalogs. And the question about the “finest known” is even more elusive.

Over the years I bought more than a few Mexican coins from highly respected coin dealers, including Dunigan, who stated the extraordinarily high asking prices were justified because this coin was “THE finest known” beyond a doubt. I also soon realized that this was only “the opinion” of one person.

Over the last 25+ years some of these “finest known” coins have remained to be the finest that I have personally seen; others have been eclipsed by much nicer specimens. The fact remains; there are many great Mexican Coins that have never been seen by today’s collectors and dealers, or even Dunigan or Hubbard. This can be proven by recent public auctions where some Mexican Republican Minors have set record prices.

A word of warning: There is a theory being pushed at this time that only Mexican Type Coins are worthy of these extraordinarily high prices. I personally do not subscribe to this theory. As Mexican Numismatics matures; more and more collectors are leaving Mexican Type Collecting only and becoming specialized. I’ve met scores of new DAM (Date/Assayer/Mintmark), variety, and date collectors by denomination because of Mexican Coin Magic and the overall rarity and condition rarity of all Mexican Coins are becoming more important to them.

In my personal opinion prices for “great” Mexican Coins are going to continue to advance and in the future we will see many of the “old” coins thought to be “THE finest known” go by the wayside as new unknown coins come on the market because of higher prices.

Martin, thanks for your great question, I hope this gives you something to think about until we can do a full article, with other collector’s opinions.

Thanks again for your wonderful comments about our website! And I look forward to seeing you at the 2007 Houston Money Show.

Mr. Poucher,
I have been having a great time reading about Mexican coins on your website. I borrowed Frank Gilboy's book (The Milled Columnarios of Central and South America) through interlibrary loan and would like to get my own copy. Do you know if there are copies available?

Hello Roger, we are pleased that you chose our website to ask your question. I will check around and let you know if I can find one. Probably will the easiest way to locate the book is to look for it on EBay as it shows up occasionally. I would say on average about once a month in the Mexican Coin section. It will usually cost between $100 and $150. You might also check abebooks.com. Gilboy did an excellent job overall although some of his estimates as to Rarity may be from his own experience rather than consensus opinions. Did the copy you read have the ERATTA page?

By the way, be VERY VERY careful about buying Pillars out of China and Indonesia as almost all - my swag is 99%+ - are fakes albeit well executed.

Today I have purchased 3 cap-and-ray 8 reales: 1841 go, 1832 pi, and 1863 ca--all three in various grades of circulation. On the 1832 and 1841, if you are viewing the eagle in the upright direction, and you flip them bottom over top, the cap and ray is upside down. On all of my other 20+ reales, if you flip them in the same way, the cap and ray is facing upright. Also, on the 1863 ca and the 1841, there are three dots after the date. I have never encountered these before. What are your thoughts on these coins?

Another great question. Most Mexican Republic coins generally have two different axis or rotations as you have now discovered. One is called "Medal Axis" and the other is called "Coin Axis". Medal Axis coins have both sides aligned when you flip them over while the Coin Axis coins have them opposed, or upside down.

Most of the Mexican Republican mints started making coins with the "medal axis or rotation" from the beginning but later changed to "coin axis" sometime during the late 1830s to the mid-1840s. However, this isn't always the case, as you will sometimes find misaligned dies that can be up to 90 degrees off of either.

Sometimes 8 Reales collectors make a "big deal" about these different rotations, but the major difference is usually the change in rotation also indicate differences in the styles used to make the coins.

Another question: when a coin leaves the press, is it "perfect". There appears to be a very small number of "perfect" coins "floating around". So, when a coin is minted, assuming that it ends up in a roll directly from the mint or saved by a collector individually, why are there so many different grades of uncirculated coins? The grading service phenomenon assigns grades for uncirculated coins from MS 60 through MS 70. Once upon a time there was just the uncirculated grade but obviously there are different grades of uncirculated. How does a coin degrade from say MS 65 to a 64 to a 63 to a 62 to a 61, etc? I am not considering those coins that have been cleaned or otherwise tampered with. Thanks for your thoughts on this subject.

Martin Kaplan

Another great question! This question needs an answer befitting the question as I’m sure many others have asked it before.

Yes, as each coin comes off the coining press it is “perfect’. However, in my opinion there are different levels of “perfect”. Let’s use a few examples of Mexican Republic Cap & Rays during the 1830s and 1840s to illustrate these different levels of “perfect”.

A “perfect” Mexico City 8 Reales produced during this time period will have blazing cartwheel luster, but they generally all have very weak strikes. The telltale sign of a great strike on the Cap & Ray side of the coin is a full readable “LIBERTAD”, so condition freaks like you are always looking for this reference point. On the Eagle side the coin must have a full snake and good feathers on the breast around the entire length of the snake’s body. When all of these conditions are met you have a “perfect 10”, but many of the coins from this time also have small mint flaws, but these have to be overlooked. These mint flaws can include tiny flan or planchet cracks near the edges, some porosity near the center of the coin, and tiny flan laminations. While these flaws can’t be distracting, the full strike and blazing luster are the key points for a “perfect” coin.

A “perfect” San Luis Potosi 8 Reales produced in this same time period will easily have a full readable “LIBERTAD”, but finding a fully struck Eagle with any luster is an almost impossible task! Another real problem with the Potosi 8 Reales is that most of them are oval or egg shaped without clear definition of the edges. Finding any nearly round Potosi 8 Reales with even subdued luster is a “wonder” coin.

While at the Guanajuato Mint a “perfect” 8 Reales is completely different depending on the style of dies used to make it. The early Guanajuato Style dies can have beautiful luster, those struck with the later Soho Style dies have little if any luster. However given enough time both can be found fully struck.

I hope these short illustrations help you understand my answer to the first part of your question? In the old days before condition freaks (BCF) a Mint State coin was just that. However, If you had a “perfect 10” coin it was called a GEM and if it was bright white it was called a GEM BU.

Now let’s talk about the Grading Wars. I’ve ranted and raved about this stuff countless times in the past. Your question part two, “The grading service phenomenon assigns grades for uncirculated coins from MS 60 through MS 70. Once upon a time there was just the uncirculated grade but obviously there are different grades of uncirculated. How does a coin degrade from say MS 65 to a 64 to a 63 to a 62 to a 61, etc? I am not considering those coins that have been cleaned or otherwise tampered with. Thanks for your thoughts on this subject.”

In the next issue (Number 9) we have an article (908) Mexican Coin Facts & Figures: Determining The Overall Rarity of Mexican Coins all about grading and rarity. But in a nutshell; Dr. William H. Sheldon invented the grading system using the 70 Point scale for Early US Large Cents. Sheldon also took into consideration the state of preservation of these coins. But he created this system for a single series of coins from only one mint. He never intended for his system to be used for other coin series from multiple mints. I personally believe this system became “the system” because the Early US Large Cent collectors were in the forefront and on the leading edge of US collecting, and more than one book and many articles had been written about them.

Because of the lack of originality and writing skills of the original Third Party Grading Services (TPGS), they simply latched on to something that was already acceptable to US coin collectors. Now they want, and are trying to convert all US Coin Collecting to a 100 point grading system. Their goal, in order to make more money, is to re-grade all coins with a more complex system that will make the TPGS the only people who can grade any coins!

I personally believe this will finally happen because there is no rhyme or reason for the 70 point grading system currently in use because it was originally created for Early US Large Cents back in the 1940s. Think of the possibilities for the great profits with this new system? If a two point grade difference in an Uncirculated coin can mean a 30% to 70% increase in selling price with a 70 point system, just imagine what it will be with a 100 point grading system.

With all series of US coins, except a few of the rarest, a collector can find and buy all coins needed for a collection in a short period of time, with enough money, in most grades. This is because the US mints made so many coins, with foreign coins and particularly those from Mexico this isn’t the case. Most series of Mexican coins have at least one DAM (Date/Assayer/Mintmark) where less than a handful are currently known to exist. Therefore having 10 or 20 grades of Uncirculated coins has little, if any, effect on the overall prices; these extreme rarities can sometimes be found only in circulated grades.

I now hope you can see why there are so many uncirculated grades of US Coins; it can be summed up in only one word … profit! Profit for the sellers of the coins and profits for the TPGS. And because only the TPGS will be able to grade the coins of the future … they will control the whole ball of wax thanks to the condition freaks that are now purchasing plastic holders with numbers … rather than coins.

I hope this helps answer your questions? But of course this is only one person’s opinion.

… Also, I had wanted to mention, I sure like all the variety-related stuff you are putting on your website. Is any of this ever going to get into book form?

I would seriously doubt it. Publishing books about Mexican Numismatics is a big crapshoot! We have found all numismatic publishers don’t seem to be interested in Mexican Numismatics, today or in the past. After Buttrey & Hubbard ceased publishing “the guide book” most publishers relinquished this business to Krause and they are only interested in doing their catalogs.

Our research has indicated Mexican Numismatics is believed to be such an obscure field that when Pradeau finished his monumental three volumes Historia Numismatica de Mexico: 1823 to 1950, about the history of the Mexican mints (originally written in English) the only publisher he could find was the Sociedad Numismatica de Mexico. And we seem to be the only people interested in re-translating them back into English. See (901- Front Page in this issue)

All of the new important new books about Mexican Numismatics: Resplandores, Hookneck, Gold Coins of The Early Mexican Republic: 1823-1873, and now 2 Escudos of the Republic of Mexico: 1825-1870 written in English since then have been self published. While I don’t mind spending a lot of time and some considerable money producing this website, I don’t feel I could ever hope to recover anywhere near my investment of time and money for this type of book. While we have several thousand readers of the website world wide, (we are now experiencing about 50 new visitors a week) I doubt we would find many takers of a book solely devoted to varieties. Richard Long once told me that from his records and research; most Mexican coin collectors had a threshold of less than $40.00 for a new book about Mexican coins and in order to get that one had to have prices for coins, even if they were outdated before the book was published. Therefore, I doubt any new books will ever be available about our research.

Kirk/Rod,

I am a collector of Mexican coins (primarily 20th century and revolutionary pieces).

I live in Mexico City and have found a nearby town that seems to have a nice flow of many varieties of coins that reach the market via estate sales and other non-dealer avenues. I am on a constant lookout for very nice pieces (especially key dates) on all 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 and 50-cent pieces and often come across other pieces of interest (through dealers) such as Balance Scale Pesos, Maximilianos and large silver pieces such as the 1914 Guerrero 2 peso coin.

My question is two fold. I have noticed over the last few years that several coins have been getting more and more scarce here in Mexico (especially 8 Reales before 1870, Maximilianos, Caballitos, Balance Scale Pesos and all revolutionary pieces). In your opinion, what should the astute novice collector be focusing on in terms of obtaining these seemingly more and more scarce coins? Should all Balance Scale pesos be bought if they are within book values (as an example)? Why are the revolutionary pieces (Muera Huerta, Campo Morado, Puebla and others all disappearing from very close to where they were minted?

The second portion is in terms of the lesser value coins. I have often found myself sifting through large buckets of coins (evidently products of some estate sale as Mexicans never discard coinage) looking for the elusive 1916 1 cent coin or a 1912 Nickel with a large mintmark. Sometimes they are found in varying conditions and every so often several AU or VF coins (1905-1945) are among the chaff. Again looking at the 1, 2, 5, 10 and 20 cent coins from 1905 forward to around 1950, what in your estimation (aside from the obvious key dates and current book value) should be considered as a wise acquisition? As a side note, many vendors still have no idea what they are selling and ask only a dollar or so for these coins. Any professional advice on how to further narrow the focus and concentrate on the best pieces would be appreciated.

Thanks for your time and answers and if there is anything I can look for or answer for you in regards to availability here in Mexico, please let me know.

John from Mexico City

I assume you read my article on 20th century Mexican coins at mexicancoinmagic.com and that is how you got my email address. If you haven't read the article please do so as it addresses many of the concerns you express.

I think the recent price of silver may have driven the large silver coins you inquired about underground as they bring little more than silver value on the wholesale market so dealers sell the 5 and 10 peso coins for silver and hold the "tougher" coins until they bring a reasonable premium over melt, like they did when silver was $4-6 dollars a ounce

I feel strongly that the coins you mentioned are over priced in the catalogs up to the grade of XF and are properly to way under valued in nice BU or better.

If you are not currently a buyer on eBay I suggest you at lease follow many of the coins you collect and see what their realizations are. Ebay is by far the best indicator of real prices of 20th century Mexican coins, especially in circulated condition. I know mailing to Mexico is a problem but many Mexican residents have someone in the US receive their coins and take them to Mexico periodically.

In 20th century every business strike coin except the 1931 5 centavo, 1922 2 centavo and 1949 peso will be offered on eBay on a regular basis in aGood-XF. Many of these coins sell very low prices compared to book value and probably rightfully so. Remember though, the prices may vary greatly between virtually identical coins. You'll probably have more luck buying on eBay than in Mexico. There is a great resurgence of coin collecting in Mexico and so many coins came to the US in the 1955-1990 era that many are scarcer there than in the US. In Mexico there is always the chance you'll run across one the better dates in very high grade or one of rare varieties in modest grade. Either of these could be real bargains but it's not a viable collecting strategy.

If you are asking which 20th century coins to buy in the "scare" not "rare" area as an investment, I think your options are somewhat limited. Any of the copper 2, 5 and 10 centavos before 1940 that catalog over $ 75 in XF are coins with real potential. There just aren't enough BU coins of these dates to fill everyone’s needs and eventually the high-grade circulated coins are going to really appreciated. The better one centavos such as the 1916 show up regularly in XF and can offer be bought at 50% or less of catalog. There are only a few silver coins that I think have real potential in less that BU condition. The 1908 20 centavo in fully struck XF or au is much more difficult than most people know. The 1911 short ray is a good coin in au but it's already recognized as such. I would concentrate on coins where the BU coins are very expensive. This usually means many collectors wont be able to afford them and will have to buy the next collectible grade which will be nice XF's or aUnc's. Stay away from problem coins i.e.; cleaned, nicked up etc regardless of the price. They can't be cheap enough.

Quickly about the balance scale pesos: My earlier comments about silver prices are also applicable to the balance scale peso. They used to sell for $12-15 when silver was $5. Now they melt at over $10 so no one want to sell them for $12-15. Before long the market will adjust to $20 and there will be plenty of the common dates in XF. Ebay is also an excellent place to buy these coins in up to au condition. Only the top 5-6 rarest dates aren't offered regularly.

I don't collect revolutionary coins so I can't comment intelligently about them.

Most importantly remember to be patience. Virtually all 20th century coins become available in XF to aUnc condition at catalog or less. Only the 1931 5 centavo and 1922 2 centavo are rare as dates and extremely rare in XF or better. The 1914 Caballito and 1949 peso are just expensive. Both could be purchased in less than week if you really needed one. Some of the early coppers are actually rare in XF but won't be terrible expensive when you finally find them, that's why patience is so important.

Question #13:

I do need some help. I bought my first 8R when I was 13 or 14 years old and have loved them ever since. However I have very little knowledge of them. I would like to know if there are many fakes out there particularly on eBay and if so how to detect them. Unlike most collectors I like circulated coins (I feel these show their history). Is there a good place other than eBay to buy 8Rs any help and advice you can give will most appreciated.

James, this is a great question! In fact, I’m going to use it and my answer in the next issue of Mexican Coin Magic?

James the answer to your question is YES; there are thousands of fake Mexican 8 Reales in the market place today! But first I feel we need to address what constitutes a FAKE because some people use this word to describe all spurious coins when they shouldn’t.

Today there are generally three types of spurious coins most encountered in Mexican Numismatics:

The last category (the Fakes) are very troublesome for eBay buyers today! The first true fake Mexican Republic 8 Reales you may encounter seem to have been made sometime during the late 1950s or early 1960s by a dentist in Jakarta Indonesia, and a few of them are very good! These Jakarta Fakes were engraved and struck with some type of press.

Most early fakes have something wrong with them, which is a dead-give-a-way they are fakes. For instance one Mexico City 1824 Hookneck has a “reeded” edge instead of an ornamental edge. Some of these struck fake coins have silver content that is close to being correct; some may even pass a weight and “ring” test. Many other early fakes made during modern times are cast and generally can’t past any test.

Another type of fake currently found is the alerted date, mintmark, and/or assayer coin. Thousands of these coins have been “doctored up” in China and other far eastern countries by some great craftsmen. Sometimes these coins fool even the ‘experts’ as was shown in a January 2007 Stack’s-Coin Galleries sale when over one hundred were offered and later withdrawn after the ‘experts’ at Stack’s were notified they were fakes.

Your first line of defense against fakes is to purchase books about Mexican 8 Reales. Then you will have to do some homework by reading and studying these books. I know this sounds like work, but in reality it is really fun. Anyone can become knowledgeable, but don’t be too disappointed if you make a few bad buys along the way because we all do.

You didn’t state what periods of 8 Reales you collect. Therefore I recommend the following books:

If you can’t find these books locally you can contact one of the numismatic booksellers on our resource page as most stock these books. All fakes and most counterfeit Mexican 8 Reales have reference points that make discovery somewhat easier. Once you learn what the real coins look like, sound like when rung, smell like and weigh from these books you too can become an expert of what to look for in the “altered” coins.

However, there is another type of fake that is even harder to recognize and most of these are coming from China, Hong Kong, and Indonesia today. These are newly struck coins made from dies that are newly engraved. The people making these coins are really ‘foxy’ as they are making good copies of common date Mexican 8 Reales and US Morgan Dollars, not rare dates such as the ‘altered’ people are doing. Because these coins aren’t rare most people don’t spend too much time studying them before buying. This is a big mistake. Another Mexican Coin Magic reader recently asked me why these people were doing this and the answer is simple … to make money. With silver running around $10 to $15 an ounce these days and the coins they are making selling for $30 to $100 each it doesn’t take a genius to see the profit margin they are making.

Now to the second part of your question; most collectors should shy away from bidding on any eBay Mexican 8 Reales that are listed from China, Hong Kong or other far eastern countries, unless your are truly an expert or collect fakes and counterfeits. I know this is a damning statement, but you asked and I’m giving you my personal opinion.

The third part of your question about liking circulated 8 Reales is very refreshing because most Mexican 8 Reales collectors in the US want only bright Mint State coins. You are lucky because you live in Texas therefore you can buy circulated 8 Reales at coin shows, flea markets, coin club meetings and coin shops all over the state. There are several coin dealers here in Texas (call me if you want their names) that have large stocks of circulated Mexican 8 Reales. There are collectors, or ex-collectors like myself, that have hundreds of circulated 8 Reales they would love to sell at bargain prices. Another good source of coins and information for you, if you don’t mind driving to San Antonio occasionally, is a new coin club formed by several Mexican Coin Collectors. This club is still in the formation stages and meets on the fifth Thursday night of each month that has five Thursdays; the next meeting is August 30, 2007. Again if you would like to know more about the club give me a call.

If you really want to get “into” the Mexican Cap & Ray 8 Reales in a big way we offer a FoxLair Reference Collection of these coins on CDs that have over 2,500 coins scanned. I’m also trying to get around to attributing, weighing and scanning the over 500 fakes, contemporary counterfeits and other spurious 8 Reales in my collection in order to do several articles about them for future issues of the Mexican Coin Magic website.

James I hope I have helped answer some of your questions? Need more? Call me anytime at the phone number listed above.

Hello,

I have run across an 8 Reales coin from 1823 and was wondering what the
approximate worth is. It is in about fine to extra fine condition but it is
slightly off-center. Any info you could give me about the coin would be
appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Mike
Houston, Texas

Hello Mike,

Glad to hear from you. Now to your question...

Without seeing your coin, or scans of the coin, it is very difficult to put a price on it. First, I have to assume it is from Mexico? If so, there are several different 8 Reales for 1823: (1) There are a couple of varieties of the Iturbide 8 Reales (2) The same goes for the Republic 8 Reales. Depending on which coin and variety means a great difference in the value as does the grade and condition.

Now let me help you better describe the coin for me:
(1) The Iturbide 8 Reales have an impression of Iturbide on one side; the other has an eagle with a crown on its head
(2) The Republic 8 Reales has a large Cap with the rays of the sun under it; the other an eagle without a crown

All Mexican 1823 8 Reales are rare; some varieties are much rarer than others! Current coin price catalogs list prices from as low as $50.00, in low grade to a high of $8,000 in Mint State. As you can see there is a great difference in these prices. Therefore you have a coin worth some money; maybe a great deal of money.

Depending on how fast you want better information you have a couple of ways to go:
(A) You can scan or photograph the coin and email the results to me, I will then give you an approximate value of the coin.
(B) You can mail me the coin and I will give you a value of the coin and offer you a certain price for the coin.
(C) You can contact one of the guys that is a contributor to our website in Houston and make arrangements to meet with him and show him the coin. He will contact me by phone, with you present if you want, and tell me about the coin. I will then make you an offer and have him cut you a check for it if you like the offer.
(D) You can take the coin to local coin shop in Houston and have them make you an offer for the coin.

Let me warn you that you want to make sure you are getting the best price for the coin and that a correct attribution of the coin is made before you sell it because it could be very valuable.

Normally I offer the highest prices paid (generally several times more than listed in the current catalogs) for Mexican coins in the USA. And I can give you references if you need them from many sellers. But beware and don't take my word as gospel.

I hope I have helped answer your questions? If you would like to contact my coin-collecting buddy in Houston, call me (956-943-8409) and I will call him for you and put you in direct contact with him.

By the way I will be in Houston for The Houston Money Show at the end of November and would love to meet you.

Ralph Poucher

Thanks so much for your quick reply and all the information. I didn’t expect such a thorough explanation and advice. I have made some digital images of the coin and are including them in this email. If you are interested in purchasing it, please let me know what your offer is. Thanks again!

Mike from Houston

After our earlier exchange in emails Mike sent us a scan of a nice about Extra Fine 1823 Iturbide 8 Reales.

Hi Ralph,

I sent you some scans of my coin a few weeks ago and have not heard back from you. Just wondering if you received these.
Thanks!

Mike

Sorry for the delay in my response. Mike, I’m sorry to give you some bad news, your coin isn’t one of the more valuable 1823 Mexico City 8 Reales. The current book value (2007 North American Coins & Prices: A Guide to U.S., Canadian and Mexican Coins) for your coin is $225 in a full Extra Fine grade and $120 in Very Fine. However, your coin (from your attached scans) make the coin appear to be not quite a full Extra Fine, but better than Very Fine, therefore our offer for your coin is $190. But it is my past experience that most scans are not generally as good as the coin. If you would like to send us the coin we could possibly offer you more, depending on its true grade.

Hi:

My local dealer showed me a what appeared to be a Mexican 8 reales in copper
that looked like
K111 (date 1816). It was the same size, weight about 27 grams. The coin
looked struck, not cast, and there was significant wear (probably an F
grade). I don't have a scan available at the moment, but it may be possible
to obtain one if it is needed to narrow down the ID

Can you shed some light on its origin or value?

K. Z____ from Ottawa, Canada

Hello Mr. Z_____:

The coin may be an insurgent piece. Do you have any scans?

Assume it is a Fernando VII. What is the Mint Mark and Assayer?

Will do some research and try to get back to you.

Dave Busse
Numismatist MCS Staff

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Mexican Cap & Ray 8 Reales: Resplandores by Mike Dunigan & JB Parker