(1111) The Back Page: Volume 3 Issue 11: Last Revision: 03/20/08
Over the years the subject of counterfeit coins has come to the surface many times when Mexican Coin Collectors gather together to discuss their coins. Sometimes these discussions end in heated arguments, or even broken friendships in the worst cases, when one collector tells another that one of his or her prize coins is a counterfeit, or even worse a fake. Most Mexican Coin Collectors have some questionable coins in their collections. Some collect them; others are simply fooled by them. So what is the real scoop on these coins?
Let’s face it, some of the coins created in Mexico between the Colonial Period until the end of the Mexican Revolution are at least questionable. Counterfeiting has always been a big business in Mexico and it took a turn for the worse when the Republic of Mexico was founded. The simple reason; counterfeiting was no longer a capital offense requiring a convicted forger to receive the death penalty, as was the case during the Spanish rule of Mexico.
Let me bring to your attention another article in Issue #10, in case you have overlooked it. (1107) The Soap Box: The Guadalupe y Calvo 1851 1 Escudo: Which is real and which is Memorex? This article is the direct result of a coin sent to us by one of our readers, Bob Murphy. Bob’s main collecting emphases is somewhat different than most of the collectors I have met in the past. You see Bob’s collection is built of coin varieties that haven’t been recognized, or published before. I almost fell out of my chair when he told me that on the night of our first phone conversation. I have never run into another person whose main goal is to find unpublished varieties. Murphy undeniably thinks in terms “outside the box”.
Since that first night, we have corresponded by email and talked on the phone several times. And each time we communicate I always learn something new, and sometimes very exciting. During one of our subsequent phone conversations he asked if I had ever seen a number of varieties he called off. In every instance my answer was no. Bob asked if I was interested in seeing these coins and adding them to the FoxLair Reference Collections? Of course I answered yes.
Several of the coins Bob later sent he had labeled as counterfeits, or possible counterfeits. In most cases I disagreed with his assessment of his coins. For more information about these coins see (1112) The Mexican Coin Answer Man: Latest Questions Answered where I answer Murphy’s questions, and give him my opinions. Once I received the coins I called Bob again after studying them at length. We had a lively conversation that night. I told him I was returning his coins by registered mail and was including one coin I wanted him to study and give me his assessment of. Over the phone I could tell he was excited about seeing the coin. He asked what it was? I told him he would just have to wait to see it.
Now I want to supply you with a little information about this coin. In 1986, while attending the Houston Money Show, I visited Mike Dunigan’s booth. He said he had something to show me that night. After my first ever, and last, Mongolian barbeque dinner we proceeded back to the hotel where the show was being held. We went to Mike’s room and he presented me with two double row boxes of Cap & Ray 8 Reales. At the time my interest was chiefly in the 8 Reales and 8 Escudos of the Guanajuato and Durango mints. The two boxes were crammed full of 8 Reales from all of the Mexican Republic mints.
To say I was overwhelmed at the coins would be an understatement! The coins were wonderful. Immediately I decided I was going to expand my collecting goals to all of the Mexican Republic Mints. I now collected all of the Cap & Ray 8 Reales. During the next several hours I looked at the coins in awe as Mike wrote up the detailed invoice for them. Dunigan’s marketing ploy worked like a charm, he knew I loved beautiful coins and wouldn’t be able to resist these babies. This is how and why I ended up buying some of the nicest 8 Reales that I would ever own. Mike wouldn’t tell me where they came at that time, all he would say was that they were the balance of a “great old” collection that he had purchased intact a long time ago. And he knew I would appreciate them. Year’s later another dealer, upon seeing the holders the coins were in, told me where the coin originally came from. This was the balance of the fabulous Joe Blieden Collection.
Sometime later I met with Mike and told him I thought some of the coins weren’t priced correctly. His response was, "Take them, or leave them!" I said there was no way he was getting them back! After he heard this, he became a little tamer. I then pointed out to him that I thought several of the coins were under priced. He said his prices stood as they were, so I then asked about several of the coins that I thought were priced inappropriately. One of them is pictured below.
He inspected the coin and said the reason it was so cheap was that it was a counterfeit. I pointed out to him it was a 4/3 OverDate and asked why a forger would do this? He responded, “Who knows!” The coin was then placed in my collection of modern fakes and contemporary counterfeits where it resided unnoticed or looked at again for many years.
Much later, while preparing the second issue of Mexican Coin Magic I pulled several coins from my collection to put together in the article (210) The Back Page: Is it Real or is it Memorex? One of the coins selected for this article was this coin. When finished with the article and placing the coins back into my collection I looked at this coin again. Now, after many years of studying Cap & Ray 8 Reales, this coin took on a different light. This coin didn’t appear to be a contemporary counterfeit to me. Since then I have also pulled some other coins that just look too damn good to be counterfeits.
Now back to Bob Murphy and what transpired after he received my coin. I got a phone call several nights after Bob received my package containing his coins and my one coin. He asked if I had a little time to talk about the coins. I did, and we did. He asked why I thought my coin was a counterfeit. I related the story mentioned above.
He asked if I remembered, off the top of my head, what the last year was that Assayer CP minted 8 Reales in Durango? I couldn’t, so he told me it was 1873.
“Okay, so what?” I said.
Next he asked, “Do you have a copy of Colin Bruce’s Standard Catalog of Mexican Coins?
I answered, “Yes. In fact I have just finished writing a review about it for this issue of Mexican Coin Magic.”
He said, “Turn to page 102 for Mexico City 8 Reales and go to the 1874s.”
Wow! Low and behold there was a listing for a Mo 1874 CP 8 Reales. Even more interesting was the prices listed for the coin. It carried a price tag of $1,200 for an Uncirculated specimen, which happens to be the most expensive coin listed for the Mexico City 8 Reales, by far.
Bob wanted to know if I personally knew Colin; I told him, no. By now I didn’t want to talk to Bruce, or anyone else about the coin, I just wanted some time to study it! Over the next few minutes I opened the FoxLair Reference Collection and looked up the Durango 1873 CP 8 Reales and the Mexico City 8 Reales from 1874. Here are my findings. First the questionable coin...
FoxLair Variety# 8R-Mo-1874-CC01a FoxLair Variety# 8R-Mo-1874-CC01a
Now the narrative for the 1874 Mexico City 8 Reales found in the FoxLair Reference Collection. I'm sorry about the poor quality of some of the scans, but they were done long ago (2003) before I developed a better technique for scanning coins. Also note this narrative was written in 2003, when I created the first FoxLair Mexican Republican Cap & Ray 8 Reales Reference Collecions.
Special Note: 1874 is a confusing year at the very least and may be the Year of Chaos for the Mexico City mint. There will tongue clucking, and some who believe I’m crazy after reading my analysis and conclusions for this year.
I know I’m going to hear a lot of moaning and groaning over my next statement, “There is an Eagle design change, the Style of 1874, midway through this production year!” Many people are going to disagree but there is a very subtle design change and believe me it does occur in 1874. Dunigan & Parker are not consistent with their recognition of this Eagle because in some of the state mints they identify the two different Eagles and in some they do not, but they make no mention in Resplandores about it here in Mexico City. Originally I believed this style or design change took place in 1876, but upon closer examination and study it really occurs in this DAM in 1874. I have found three different varieties of this DAM so far, but there may be a “Normal Date & Assayer” with the Style of 1867 Eagle that I just haven’t seen yet. Walla, I just found the [Mo-1874-1103] variety in the “San Antonio Collection” so it is no longer questionable!
[2] Mo-1874-1101 (2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: 74/69 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Style of 1867 Eagle: ex Joe Blieden- FoxLair Reference Collection-Kirk Menczer *SOLD* Weight: 27.0 grams
[2] Mo-1874-1102 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: 4/3 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Style of 1867 Eagle: ex Joe Blieden-FoxLair Reference Collection *Resplandores Variety Plate Coin* Weight: 27.0 grams
[2] Mo-1874-1103 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1867 Eagle: ex Pat Johnson Rare Coin Sale (11/89) Lot#177-Alex Siegel-SAC Specimen Weight: 27.0 grams
[2] Mo-1874-1201 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & Assayer; New Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Harry Saginaw#7-FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 27.1 grams
Special Note: There will be more than a small amount of controversy about this DAM too; Dunigan & Parker list the following two varieties for this DAM:
1874 Normal Date & BH/MH- OverAssayer
1874 Normal Date & BH Normal Assayer
Notice Dunigan & Parker list only one OverAssayer combination for this DAM and no OverDates, and they have a photo of the purported BH/MH OverAssayer coin, but it is clearly a B/M only and not a BH/MH. I personally have found several varieties and at least one OverDate (18/17) correcting the error date (1774) that has not been cataloged before as far as I can ascertain at this time. I also wonder if any of the 8 Reales, with this Error Date were ever made and escaped the melting pot, or was the error die caught in a quality control check before any coins were minted. The varieties I list below have all been found on very high-grade coins and while some may be very hard to detect on lower grade coins, each one has some telltale diagnostics that once you study the scans provided should make it easy to attribute lower grade coins.
At his time (September 2003) I have personally never seen the BH/MH OverAssayer coin since I began collecting 8 Reales in the early 1980s! However I have seen the several different varieties of the B/M only OverAssayer on several occasions and have owned two different varieties until recently. I also own one of only two specimens of the BH/MM OverAssayer variety that I have found and personally seen, the other is in the “San Antonio Collection” and both are scanned here for your edification. Could this coin be the variety that D&P thought was the BH/MH OverAssayer?
If you study the scans of both of these [Mo-1874-2101] coins you will note that while the B/M is very clear, the “H” is rather muddled. If you study these two extremely high-grade specimen scans closely you can see the bottom “V” made from the intersection of an “M” between the legs of the “H”. This could not be another “H” it has to be an “M”, therefore it has to be the BH/MM OverAssayer!
The next variety that is going to have people using my name in vain is the [Mo-1874-2102], which is the Error Date correcting 18/17 OverDate and that is also a B/M only OverAssayer. Even though the 8/7 may be difficult to see on low-grade coins the 1/1 is a surefire diagnostic for this variety. At this time I’ve seen only a single example of this variety, but I’d bet there are others floating around out there waiting to be discovered.
I have little or no idea or proof about the rarity of any of these varieties but because Dunigan & Parker suggest the two previous DAM’s Overdates range from Rare to Extremely Rare and they never saw these varieties, so I’m going to assume these new varieties are of even greater rarity? I’m listing the BH/MH, but I’m calling it questionable until I actually see one. Below are the FoxLair Numbers and the varieties I have found so far for the Mo 1874 BM:
[Mo-1874-2101] = Normal Date & BH/MM OverAssayer (Very Rare- I’ve seen only two examples) [Mo-1874-2102] = 18/17- OverDate & B/M OverAssayer (Excessively Rare- I’ve seen only one example) [Mo-1874-2103] = Normal Date & B/M OverAssayer (Rare- I’ve seen about 12 examples) [Mo-1874-2104] = Normal Date & Normal Assayer (Common) [Mo-1874-2105] = Normal Date & BH/MH OverAssayer (Questionable)[2] Mo-1874-2101 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & BH/MM OverAssayer; Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Joe Blieden- FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 27.1 grams
[D-2] Mo-1874-2101 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & BH/MM OverAssayer; Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Alex Siegel- SAC Specimen Weight: 27.1 grams
[2] Mo-1874-2102 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: OverDate Correcting the Error Date: 1774 18/17 OverDate & B/M OverAssayer; Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Harry Saginaw#7-FoxLair Reference Collection *Unlisted O/D-O/A Combo in Resplandores* Weight: 27.1 grams
[2] Mo-1874-2103 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & B/M OverAssayer; Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Rod Bates#5-FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 27.0 grams
[2] Mo-1874-2104 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & Assayer; Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Joe Blieden-FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 27.2 grams
[D-0] Mo-1874-2104 2 DT: Style of 1867 Cap: Normal Date & Assayer; Style of 1874 Eagle: ex Emil Spranz-FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 26.9 grams
[2] Mo-1874-CC 01 Style very similar to the Style of 1867 Cap: 4/3 Date & Normal Assayer; Style very similar to Style of 1874 Mexico City Eagle: ex Joe Blieden-FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 26.5 grams
Special Note: I personally believe this DAM is a highly Underrated Rarity and I have spent hours studying the three coins in the FoxLair Reference Collection© and the photos of the J.B. Parker Plate Coin in Resplandores and I can’t determine any difference in the style of these coins and those of the Style of 1859. Therefore I’m going to have to disagree with D&P about a new Style of 1873-1882 for this year.
[2] Do-1873-1101 Style of 1859 Cap: Normal Date & Assayer; Style of 1859 Durango Eagle: ex Mike Dunigan#1- FoxLair Reference Collection Weight: 27.5 grams
[2] Do-1873-1102 Style of 1859 Cap: Repunched: 1/1 in “10DS.” 7/7-3/? OverDate & P/P Repunched Assayer; Style of 1859 Durango Eagle: San Antonio Collection Specimen Weight: 27.3 grams
[2] Do-1873-1103 Style of 1859 Cap: Repunched: 1/1 in “10DS.” 7/7 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1859 Durango Eagle: San Antonio Collection Specimen Weight: 26.7 grams
Now let's look at some side by side comparisons of some of
the different reference points of these coins. First the Eagles...
FoxLair Variety
#8R-Do-1873-1103b
FoxLair Variety
#8R-Do-1873-1102b
FoxLair Variety #8R-Mo-1874-CC01b
Notice the shape of the Eagle's beak, the shape of the snake's head, and the Eagle's feathers. Now let's compare it to a Style of 1867 Mexico City found on the Mo 1874 MH 8 Reales.
FoxLair Variety #8R-Mo-1874-1103b
Next let's look a the new Style of 1874 Eagle also found on another Mo 1874 MH 8 Reales.
FoxLair Variety #8R-Mo-1874-1201b
Note the slight differences in these eagles! The first problem with all of this is that Dunigan and Parker didn't note the Style of 1874 dies in Resplandores for Mexico City, even though it was evidently designed there because this was the first mint to use this design. This oversight has caused numerous problems because they do recognize this final Standardized Mexico City Die Style for the majority of the other mints that were still in operation at the time. In most of the state mints the change to this style occurred during the 1880s; usually about 1886 to 1887.
You can see from these scans why Mike Dunigan presumed this coin was a counterfeit; it does not use the correct style for a Mexico City 8 Reales from this period, however it does use the proper style for the Durango Mint. Later, during the 1880s and 1890s we find much die swapping between mints for the 8 Reales; old Alamos and Guadalajara dies are used at Guanajuato, old Guadalajara dies also appear at the Mexico City Mint. Until recently it was thought these were the only occurrences of this except for some gold peso die swapping.
Today we realize this isn’t the only time this practice happened. Dies were being swapped between Culiacan and Guadalupe y Calvo for several denominations as far back as the 1840s. The Sonora Style dies that were evidently originally made for, or at Guadalupe y Calvo saw service in multiple mints.
Because Bob Murphy doesn’t adhere to always thinking “in the box”, we have probably discovered that the MO 1874/3 CP 8 Reales isn’t a contemporary counterfeit. In reality it is probably an extreme rarity that was minted from a single old Durango die pair and should be considered to be an error assayer coin. I’m sure there will be many who disagree with our (Murphy and me) theory, but until proven different I’m going to say Bob Murphy discovered an old, but new DAM for the Mexican Republic 8 Reales in 2008.
Did you find this article interesting and informative? Would you like to know more about what Bob finds from the other supposedly counterfeits in the FoxLair Reference Collections? We have now nicknamed Murphy “Outta The Box Bob” so stay tuned to find out what more he discovers.
[X] Return to Table of Contents Volume 3 Issue 11
[Home Page] Return to Mexican Coin Magic Home Page