(1112) The Mexican Coin Answer Man: Volume 3 Issue 11: Last Revision: 03/20/08

We have had only about 20 emails with comments, questions, offers to sell and buy coins since Issue #10 of MCM. We have been trying to answer each and every one of them, sometimes belatedly, but we have gotten way behind this time. Some of you will find your answers here, others we have already sent answers to by email. I hope our readers will bear with us in our tardiness this time, but we have had several large collections of minor republican coins loaned to us to add to the FoxLair Reference Collections since we began our series of articles about the minor Cap & Ray silver coins. We are obligated to try to turn these collections around and send them back to their owners as quickly as possible. So we have been very busy since Issue 10 was published.

 I personally receive over 100 emails a week, during slow weeks, and Dave Busse gets almost as many, so we sometimes get a little back logged answering them. Let me give all of our readers a hint on how to speed up the process of asking questions, submitting articles, etc., so we can hopefully expedite your emails in the future. If you have a Question, a Comment, or a Suggestion on how to improve our website and you want an answer quickly; please submit it to Mcmanswers@aol.com. If you want to submit an article for publication, or contact us about being added to the mailing or email list, or something else that isn’t a question, please send your email to MexCoinMagic@aol.com. If you want to buy something we have for sale; books, auction catalogs or coins, or want us to make an offer for your coins or other items please direct your email to FoxLairAJ@aol.com. And hopefully we can get back to you in a reasonable amount of time in the future.  

Here are two of the more interesting questions with our answers from our readers since Issue 10.  Because of the length of our answers we are printing only these two in this issue of the Answer Man.

Question #1:

Hi Ralphie,

I'm doing some research on the 8 Escudos, and wanted to double check

the date on the Go coin with the Soho eagle.    My old and bad memory

says it was an 1838. Is this the correct date, and if so, is the coin a

normal date or an 8/7? My memory also remembers that it might

have been 1835, 36 or 37, so thought I had better check.

Hope all is well down your way.

Jed

Answer #1: 

Jed

Until 1840 the only eagles on the production Guanajuato 8 Escudos are the unique Guanajuato Eagles!

The Soho Style dies are seen the first time in Guanajuato on the Go 1831 MJ Trial Strikes. The first Soho production 8 Escudos occur in 1840 on the Go 1840 PJ and continues on: Go 1841 PJ, Go 1842 PJ, Go 1842 PM, and the really rare one on the Go 1843 PM.

There are three different confirmed eagles for 1843:

Be careful there are supposed to be three different eagles on the 1844 Guanajuato 8 Escudos too

The Style of 1843 is seen for only two years, 1843 and 1844, the Style of 1844 shows up until 1854.

Below is the first email we received from Bob Murphy, one of our MCM readers,  in which he sent scans of two very interesting coins unseen by us. This email led to several more emails and phone conversations. Bob ended up sending us several coins to study and add to the FoxLair Reference Collections. Here is my answer to Bob after studying his coins. If you are interested in Mexican Republic 1 Escudos, Bob also sent one of those, be sure to read (1107) The Soap Box: The Guadalupe y Calvo 1851 1 Escudo: Which is real and which is Memorex?  

Question #2:

1. 8R 1868 Ca MM with the second 8 over a horizontal 8 (and perhaps over a horizontal 18)
2. 1E 1851 GC MP with the E in Libertad over a retro E.  Also notice the L's in La Libertad look like I's because the foot of the L is barely visible.

Bob Murphy

For a few years I have collected mostly the silver reales of Mexico, hunting for overdates and other varieties.  Contemporary counterfeits also interest me but I'm no competition for Swamper Bob.

 Answer #2:

FoxLair

Mex-o-Gram^©

Subject: Your Coins and my findings

Bob I’m sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I’ve been busier than a one-legged paperhanger lately and I wanted to do a good job of attributing your coins properly so I could add them to the FoxLair Reference Collections. Here goes with my evaluation of them. I have enclosed the information about each by copying the info from the reference collection for you.

I have included my write up that will become an article in the next issue of Mexican Coin Magic about the Guadalupe y Calvo GC 1851 MP 1 Escudo. I think you will find it Veryyy interesting.

Now to the other coins, first the 8 Reales:

Chihuahua: You sent one coin, a C^A 1868 MM; this coin is the first one I have seen of this variety;

Special Note: After a 29 year run of the Soho Style Dies we see them disappear forever; a new Mexico City Style of 1867 dies show up in the Chihuahua Mint.  At first these dies look very similar to their Mexico City counterparts, but over the course of years they become less like the Mexico City dies as they are modified. From 1868 until 1881 we see the Chihuahua 8 Reales with Dragon Teeth, then things go awry and some dies have Micro Dragon Teeth and some completely without them, but the basic design doesn’t change all that much. This coin is a great and highly underrated rarity in any grade; it is missing from many advanced 8 Reales collections including the famous Mike McCormick Collection sold by Ponterio & Associates during three sales from 2006 to 2007. Even the great JB Parker Collection had a single variety grading only Very Fine.       

Update 2008: One of our readers, Bob Murphy, of Mexican Coin Magic sent us a scan of a coin he owns that has an unlisted overdate that corrects an error- the 2^nd 8 is over a horizontal 8.

[2] Ca-1868-2201 (2 DT) New Style of 1869 Cap: Normal Date & Assayer; New Chihuahua-Mexico City Style of 1869 Eagle: ex Dunigan#7-FoxLair Collection                              Weight: 26.65 grams

[2] Ca-1868-2202 (2 DT) New Style of 1869 Cap: Unlisted 2^nd 8/Horizontal 8 OverDate & Assayer; New Chihuahua-Mexico City Style of 1869 Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection Specimen

Weight: 26.92 grams

See the scans below of my coin:

Ca-1868-2201a FOX                                                          Ca-1868-2201b FOX

Culiacan: You sent one coin a C 1855 CE…

DAM Scarce and highly Underrated; Average: weakly struck aVF- many with Flan Problems, the few known high grade coins tend to be ugly flat strikes & Very Rare

Special Note: This DAM has only one thing remaining from the Sonora dies, the new lettering and reports of two OverDates (2^nd 5/4 and 2^nd 5/6) one of which that cannot be confirmed at this time, however there are definitely two different 2^nd 5/5 Repunched Date dies, one of which could easily be attributed a 5/3, but of course this die style wasn’t used during 1853 or was it?

Update 2008: Bob Murphy, one of our Mexican Coin Magic readers, sent an interesting specimen of this DAM for inclusion into the FoxLair Reference Collection. At first glance it looks very similar to variety Cn-1855-1104, but upon closer examination it isn’t that variety at all.

[N] Cn-1855-1101 Unknown Style Cap: 2^nd 5/4 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Unknown Culiacan Eagle: Unconfirmed Yet!                                                                               Weight: __._ grams

[N] Cn-1855-1102 Unknown Style Cap: 2^nd 5/6 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Unknown Culiacan Eagle: ex P&A#139 (09/06) Lot#155 Mike McCormick Sale                                    Weight: __._ grams

[2] Cn-1855-1103 Style of 1854 Cap: Sonora Letters Type#1 2^nd 5/5 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; Double Punched Style of 1854 Culiacan Eagle: ex Richard Long PTS#4-FoxLair Collection 

[2] Cn-1855-1104 Style of 1854 Cap: Sonora Letters Type #2 2^nd 5/5 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; Repunched Legends Style of 1854 Culiacan Eagle: ex Harry Saginaw#7-FoxLair Collection

Weight: 26.95 grams

[2] Cn-1855-1105 Style of 1854 Cap: Sonora Letters Type #2 2^nd 5/5 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; No Dot after “MEXICANA_” Repunched: “REPUB/PLICA” Style of 1854b Culiacan Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                                                     Weight: 27.04 grams        

Durango: You sent two coins; a D^_ 1833 RM and a Do 1850 JMR, both are unusual to say the least. The first uses a style unlike any seen for this date and is most likely a counterfeit, or even possibly a modern fake even though it passes the ring test and its weight falls within the range of those found for Durango 8 Reales of this time frame. The second coin is even more interesting; the fact that it is much thicker than normal and weighs (29.00 grams) considerably more than any genuine Durango 8 Reales I’ve ever seen. This coin doesn’t pass the ring test; it has the rough grainy appearance of being cast, and appears to have been ground on the edges so that it will fit into some type of bezel.

Now one must ask why were these two coins manufactured?

I personally believe most contemporary counterfeits were produced for one of two reasons. My theory for the first type of counterfeiting had to do with tax evasion for the owners of mines. The Mexican Republic Tax structure was unusual; silver (the primary precious metal found in Mexico) was taxed at a much higher rate than gold or copper during the entire history of the Republic. Furthermore there were several levels of taxes within the Republic:

1. All mined metals were taxed by both state and federal governments

2. Precious (gold, silver and copper) metals were required to be minted for export, therefore the mine owners were faced with a cost for minting plus another tax for coining imposed by both state and federal governments

3. Precious metals also faced a tax when transported between states

4. Another tax was paid to the federal government when precious metals were exported.

With all of these different and many taxes, tax avoidance, or evasion was a big issue for mine owners.           

Of course a second reason for contemporary counterfeiting was a profit motive; if a mine owner was going to cheat he might as well reduce the weight of the precious metal in his manufactured coins. But this wasn’t always the case. Sometimes we find contemporary counterfeits with full weight and fineness, so we can assume they were made to only avoid an outlandish tax structure.

Contemporary accounts of counterfeiting in Mexico are few and far between, but one appears in Life in Mexico During a Residence in That Country by Madame Calderon de la Barca written in 1843. On pages 271 to 272 Madame Calderon describes her visit to the Mexico City Mint and her impressions of the mint and some of the people therein. But more important she describes a place in the mint filled with “machines for coining false money, which have been collected in such numbers there is hardly room for them.”

Continuing on she states,

We were assured, while wondering at the number of machines for false coining which had been collected, that there are twice that number now in full force in Mexico; but that they belong to such distinguished personages the government is afraid to interfere with them. Beside this, there is no sufficient punishment for this crime, a capital offense in the days of the Spanish government. A lady here is said to have exclaimed with much simplicity on hearing her husband was accused of false coining, “I really wonder why they make so much noise about it. It seems to me that my husband’s copper is as good as any other!”

From this contemporary account it is easy to see that counterfeiting was a problem in Mexico during that time and one that had no easy solution because so many “distinguished personages” practiced it.

San Luis Potosi: You sent three coins two of which I believe are good coins, the P^T 1842 PS and the P^I 1853 MC, but of course the P^_ 1838 AM is a contemporary counterfeit. Here are my findings

Special Note: This is a well made, even if the design is incorrect and has the wrong assayer for this year, contemporary counterfeit. This example has a pretty good edge deign and an overall appearance of having been struck.

[2] Pi-1838-CC01 Unusual Style of Cap: Error: No “I” in Mintmark & No “s” after “8R^_.” Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Unusual Style of Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection

Weight: 26.20 grams

Special Note: This is the first year we have seen the error mintmark with what looks like a superscript “T” in place of the normally seen superscript “I”.  Judging from our past experience, we assume it is exceedingly rare and probably was a one-die coin?

[2] Pi-1842-6101 New Style of 1842 Cap: Normal Date & Normal Assayer; New “Drop Wing” Style of 1842 Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                                    Weight: 26.38 grams         

DAM Rare to Very Rare and Underrated; Average: VF or Less, nice XFs are considered High-Grade for this DAM, aUncs Very Rare and are plagued with very weak centers

[2] Pi-1853-1201 Style of 1842 Cap: Type#2 Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1843 Eagle: ex Richard Long Private Treaty Sale#5-FoxLair Reference Collection            Weight: 26.9 grams

[2] Pi-1853-1202 Style of 1842 Cap: Type#3 Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1843 Eagle: ex Spink-Norweb- FoxLair Reference Collection                                                     Weight: 26.9 grams

[N] Pi-1853-1203 Style of 1842 Cap: Type#4 Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Unknown Style of Eagle: Amon Carter Specimen                                                                        Weight: __._ grams

While you thought your coin was a counterfeit, I personally believe it is a FoxLair Variety Pi-1853-1201 that is heavily worn. See the scans below of my coin:

Pi-1853-1201a FOX                                                                           Pi-1853-1201b FOX

Zacatecas: You sent two coins, a Z^S 1832 OM and a Z^S 1845 OM; both appear to be genuine specimens even though both are underweight.

Normal Date Common, 2/1 OverDate Very Rare; Average: VF+ to XF, a few nice aUncs, soft Eagles the norm

[2] Zs-1832-1101 Style of 1828 Cap: Inverted: 8/8-3/3 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: ex Harry Saginaw#9-FoxLair Collection                             Weight: 26.9 grams

[0] Zs-1832-1102 Style of 1828 Cap: 2/1 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: ex Norweb-FoxLair Collection-Big E Collection             *SOLD* Weight: __._ grams <Need Scans & Weight>

[2] Zs-1832-1103 Style of 1828 Cap: Type #1 Normal Date & Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: ex Rod Bates#7-FoxLair Collection                                                                Weight: 26.9 grams

[2] Zs-1832-1103 Style of 1828 Cap: Type #2 Normal Date & Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: ex Siegel-Pat Johnson-SAC Specimen                                                                      Weight: 27.8 grams

[N] Zs-1832-1104 Style of 1828 Cap: Type #3 Normal Date & Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: JB Parker Sale Lot#3704                                                                               Weight: __._ grams

[2] Zs-1832-1105 Style of 1828 Cap: Repunched: 8/8-3/3-2/2 Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: San Antonio Collection                                                             Weight: 28.1 grams

[2] Zs-1832-1106 Style of 1828 Cap: Repunched: 8/3 in “8R”, 183/183-2/? Date & Normal Assayer; Style of 1828 Zacatecas Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                          Weight: 25.76 grams

Transitional Year: Style of 1843 Common and is normally found in all grades to aUnc, Style of 1846 Scarce to Very Scarce and found in all grades to XF with aUncs Scarce, True Uncs Rare for both varieties. The Style of 1843 still plagued by weak centers & Legends and minting flaws, the Style of 1846 is generally much better!

Special Note: This is another year of transition for Zacatecas with two styles of dies, the old Style of 1843 and the new Style of 1846.  There is truly an easy way to distinguish these different styles without close study, because the new Eagle of 1846 now appears to made with Mexico City matrixes, those of you familiar with the Mexico City Eagles shouldn’t have any problems telling this eagle from the old Zacatecas style Eagle.  The new Style of 1846 Cap has a very sharp pointed top where the old Style of 1843 had a pronounced fold giving it a blunt appearance when weakly struck as are most of the Caps during the 1840s.  Recently I bought a coin on eBay that was supposed to be a Z^S 1841 OM, but it was the wrong style for this DAM.  The coin had been harshly cleaned in several areas, the scans made it look like the 1841 date.  I showed the coin to several other collectors; they agreed it was a 1841.  After spending some time studying this specimen it appears that there is no character after the “4”; I could be mistaken because of the heavy gouges in the coin at the date.  But until some better explanation comes about, I’m going to assume it to be a new error variety [Zs-1841-1203] without the full date. 

[2] Zs-1845-1101 Style of 1843 Cap: Type #1 Normal Date & Assayer; (5 x 11) Style of 1843 Zacatecas Eagle: ex EES#1-FoxLair Collection                                                        Weight: 26.9 grams

[D-2] Zs-1845-1101 Style of 1843 Cap: Type #1 Normal Date & Assayer; (5 x 11) Style of 1843 Zacatecas Eagle: SAC Specimen                                                                             Weight: 26.7 grams

[2] Zs-1845-1102 Style of 1843 Cap: Type #2 Normal Date & Assayer; (5 x 11) Style of 1843 Zacatecas Eagle: ex ESS#1-FoxLair Collection                                                                Weight: 27.2 grams

[2] Zs-1845-1103 Style of 1843 Cap: Type #3 Normal Date & Assayer; (5 x 11) Style of 1843 Zacatecas Eagle: ex ESS#1-FoxLair Collection                                                                Weight: 27.3 grams

[2] Zs-1845-1104 Style of 1843 Cap: Unlisted: 5/4? Normal Date & Assayer; (5 x 11) Style of 1843 Zacatecas Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                                                Weight: 26.68 grams

[2] Zs-1845-1201 New Style of 1846 Cap: Type #1 Normal Date & Assayer; New (4 x 11) Style of 1846 Mexico City Style Eagle: ex Richard Long#5 PTS-FoxLair Collection-Big E Collection                    

*SOLD* Weight: 26.9 grams

[2] Zs-1845-1202 New Style of 1846 Cap: Type #2 Normal Date & Assayer; New (4 x 11) Style of 1846 Mexico City Style Eagle: ex Rod Bates#3- FoxLair Collection                Weight: 27.0 grams

[D-2] Zs-1845-1202 New Style of 1846 Cap: Type #2 Normal Date & Assayer; New (4 x 11) Style of 1846 Mexico City Style Eagle: SAC Specimen                                                      Weight: 26.9 grams

[2] Zs-1845-1203 New Style of 1846 Cap: Error Date: No Character after “4” Date & Normal Assayer; New (4 x 11) Style of 1846 Mexico City Style Eagle: ex eBay (11/04)-FoxLair Collection

Weight: 26.5 grams

Next the minors:

The Zacatecas Z^_ 1827 AO ½ Real: Bob I fully agree with your attribution. I have just begun working on the reference collection for the ½ Reales so my data is very sparse at this time.

Ö ½ R • Z^_ • 1827• A•O•

Reported Production: None

FoxLair DAM Rarity: [_-_] 

Overall DAM Rarity: _____; Average: _______

Special Note: All early Zacatecas ½ Reales are very difficult to find, especially in grades above Fine! In fact I have had only one for a study coin at this time! 

[N] Zs-1827-3101 Cap Style of 1826: Error Mintmark No “^S” Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Zacatecas Style of 1826 Eagle:                                                                                Weight: _.___ grams

[N] Zs-1827-3102 Cap Style of 1826: Error: Mintmark No “^S” & No Line in Denomination Fraction, 7/7 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; Zacatecas Style of 1826 Eagle: Robert Murphy Collection

Weight: 1.70 grams

The two Potosi 1 Reales; P^I 1854 MC and the P^I 1855 MC; again I’ve just began work on the 1 Reales so I have little data yet, but I agree with your attributions.

Ø 1 R. P^I. 1854. M.C.

Reported Production: None

Overall DAM Rarity: _____; Average: _______

Special Note:

[N] Pi -1854-1101 Unknown Style of Cap: 4/2 OverDate & Large C/small c Repunched Assayer; Unknown Potosi Style of Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                  Weight: 3.21 grams

[N] Pi -1854-1102 Unknown Style of Cap: 4/3 OverDate & Large C/small c Repunched Assayer; Unknown Potosi Style of Eagle: The Detroit Collection                                       Weight: _.__ grams

Ø 1 R. P^I. 1855. M.C.

Reported Production: None

Overall DAM Rarity: _____; Average: _______

Special Note:

[2] Pi -1855-1101 Unknown Style of Cap: 2^nd 5/4 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Unknown Potosi Style of Eagle: The Detroit Collection                                                                Weight: _.__ grams

[D-2] Pi -1855-1101 Unknown Style of Cap: 2^nd 5/4 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Unknown Potosi Style of Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                                    Weight: 3.27 grams

[N] Pi -1855-1102 Unknown Style of Cap: Normal Date & Normal Assayer; Unknown Potosi Style of Eagle:

                                                                                        Weight: _.__ grams

The Culiacan C 1860 PV 2 Reales: I have a little more and better data for the 2 Reales, but I’m still working on this reference collection.

* 2R. C. 1860. P.V.

Overall DAM Rarity: [_-_]; Average: Very Fine or slightly better, some XFs, several near Mint State coins reported

Special Note: We see a new assayer (PV) and completely new dies, the new Style of 1860 dies for both the Cap & Rays and the Eagles this year. All of the “stops” or dots have migrated to the lower-level and we find a “five-point” star used for the first time on the Culiacan 2 Reales. The crude lettering and dies disappear. And for the first time a Type Collector may find a few well-struck and near Mint State Culiacan 2 Reales. 

Update 2008: Early in 2008 I received another specimen of this DAM from Bob Murphy, one of our Mexican Coin Magic readers, who said he had an unlisted variety for this date.  After talking to him on the phone I assumed he was incorrect with his attribution that the coin was a 60/59 OverDate because we have no Culiacan 2 Reales reported for 1859 and my one study coin for this DAM was clearly a repunched 0/0 date. Upon receiving the coin I was amazed because the coin appears to be a 60/50 OverDate rather than a 60/59, but I’m not ruling out the possibility that it could be a 60/59. The other example of this DAM in the reference collection was originally attributed as a 0/0 Repunched Date and it shows no signs of the “5” sticking out of the top “6” like the Murphy specimen. There are also some differences in the Eagle die; the San Andres specimen shows signs of doubling while the Murphy specimen has none. Very interesting…    

[2] Cn-1860-2101 New Culiacan Cap & Rays Style of 1860: 0/0 Repunched Date & Normal Assayer; New Doubled Culiacan Style of 1860 Low-Level Dot after “MEXICANA.” Eagle: San Andres Collection Specimen

Weight: 6.7 grams

[2] Cn-1860-2102 New Culiacan Cap & Rays Style of 1860: 60/50 OverDate & Normal Assayer; New Culiacan Style of 1860 Low-Level Dot after “MEXICANA.” Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection

Weight: 6.37 grams

The D^o 1849 CM Durango 2 Reales:

* 2 R. D^O. 1849. C.M.

Overall DAM Rarity: [_-_]; Average: Unknown

Special Note:

Update 2008: In early 2008 I received an interesting specimen of this DAM from Bob Murphy for inclusion in the FoxLair Reference collection that is very different from my other study coin.  

[2] Do-1849-1101 Paris Style Cap & Rays: 4/3 OverDate & C/R OverAssayer; Modified (1) Top Knot Feather Paris Style Type E Bald Eagle: San Andres Collection Specimen    Weight: 6.7 grams

[2] Do-1849-1102 Paris Style Cap & Rays: Filled “o” in Mintmark, Repunched: “2R/2R, D/D & 20/20”, 4/3 OverDate & Normal Assayer; Modified (1) Top Knot Feather Paris Style Type E Bald Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection                                                                       Weight: 6.01 grams

The P^I 1837 JS Potosi 4 Reales:

∗ 4R^S. P^I. 1837. J.S.

Overall DAM Rarity: [7-C]; Average: Very Good; a couple of Fines, (2-4) VFs, (1) aUnc rumored to exist

Special Note: I have had three study coins for this DAM, so I’m making all of my attributions from them. 1837 was a transitional year for the Potosi 8 Reales Eagles; we see the old “Bob-Tail” Eagle Style of 1835, a few of the “Short-Tail” Eagles Style of 1837, and a New “Pointed Tail” Eagle Style of 1837, but all of the Cap & Rays I’ve seen were from the Style of 1835 dies. At this time I can confirm only one, the Style of 1837 dies, for the San Luis Potosi 4 Reales. Here are the major reference points for these dies:

Cap & Rays Die: (1) A small broken “Six-Point Star” before “4R^S” (2) All “stops” or dots are Low-Level (3) The Cap & Rays punch is much larger and different looking than the Mexico City Style dies of the same period, in fact one could make an argument that they are almost as large as the ones found on the Potosi 8 Reales of the period (4) The legend lettering punches are rather crude and are very similar to the Potosi 8 Reales (5) The superscript “SS” in the fineness are huge (6) The “J” in the assayer’s initials is a “Full J” that is not the norm for the other Republican Mints (7) Of course one of the most noticeable reference points for this style is the addition of the huge superscript ^“S” after “4R” 

Eagle Die: (1) The Eagle found on my study coin is the New Pointed Tail Style of 1837 Eagle that is very similar to the one found on the Potosi 8 Reales (2) The dot after “MEXICANA” is positioned at a “Mid-Level” (3) We find a “4 Berry & 5 Acorn” & “10 Laurel & 8 Oak” Leaf configuration (4) The final Laurel leave is below the dot after “MEXICANA”

Update 2008: During February 2008 a Mexican Coin Magic reader sent me a group of coins to add to the appropriate FoxLair Reference Collections, in this group was a heavily worn P^I 1837 JS 4 Reales. My immediate reaction was to assume it was like the other two coins from this DAM already in the reference collection, but while studying it before I started scanning it I noticed something different. The Rays and their placement on the Murphy specimen are much different than the other two coins, thus proving there were at least two different Cap dies for this extreme rarity! The Eagle side of the Murphy coin is even more worn than the cap side, but it too is a different die, proving there are also at least two Eagle dies for 1837 too.    

[2] Pi-1837-1101 New Potosi Cap & Rays Style of 1837: Type #1 Normal Date & Normal Assayer; New Potosi “Pointed Tail” Style of 1837a Eagle: San Andres Collection Specimen

Diameter: Weight: 13.1 grams

[D-2] Pi-1837-1101 New Potosi Cap & Rays Style of 1837: Type #1 Normal Date & Normal Assayer; New Potosi “Pointed Tail” Style of 1837a Eagle: Dave Busse Collection Specimen

Diameter: Weight: 12.2 grams

[2] Pi-1837-1102 New Potosi Cap & Rays Style of 1837: Type #2 Normal Date & Normal Assayer; New Potosi “Pointed Tail” Style of 1837b Eagle: Bob Murphy Collection

Diameter: 30.05 Weight: 12.93 grams

I hope you find my comments helpful?

Let me thank you again for allowing me to keep your coins for so long, I’m sorry for the delay in getting them back to you. I’ve enclosed the Mexico City M^O 1874 CP 8 Reales that is supposed to be a contemporary counterfeit for your study. When you get through just enclose it in the next batch of coins you send to me, that is if you will allow me to study more of your collection?

Did you find Madame Calderon’s comments about counterfeiting interesting?